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Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

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Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Including "put your hands on the wheel" x2

If you're instructing the driver to do something, and they don't, your last option is to fail as gracefully as possible (which is "what is the best path forward in the distance I need to stop at emergency braking rate + I must notify the vehicle behind me as soon as its clear I will take automated action, even if that's before I apply braking force").

In real life, with real driver nobody taking care of what's behind. Automatic action or not. The distance should be safe.

People doesn't drive correctly and this is all the fault of automatic vehicle, that make me sad.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> obstacles might actually be net-safer to not swerve around In the UK its illegal to swerve for these things. In the sense that if you subsequently cause an accident for swerving to avoid a cat, you are at fault.

Wait, it's illegal to swerve for a moose (TIL: moose are called elk in Europe, American elk are totally different) in the UK? Hitting a moose is a fast route to the grave.

There are no moose in the UK. There's the occasional deer on the road, and parts of the country with unfenced sheep grazing, but no moose.

Common sense will be applied and liability is not strict nor is it a criminal offence per se. https://www.clarkewillmott.com/personal-injury-and-medical-n...

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#274

With three accidents on "autopilot" in a short period, the defects in Tesla's design are becoming clear. 1. Tesla's "hands on wheel" enforcement is much weaker than their competitors. BMW, Volvo, and Mercedes have similar systems, but after a few seconds of hands-off-wheel, the vehicle will start to slow. Tesla allows minutes of hands-off time; one customer reports driving 50 miles without touching the wheel. Tesla i…

Tesla's autopilot behavior after a crash is terrible. It doesn't stop. In the semitrailer crash, the vehicle continued under power for several hundred feet

Are we sure it continued under power? The Tesla is a heavy vehicle, with weight centred close to the ground. Momentum could easily have carried it several hundred feet after a high speed collision.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#275
post #163

This is going to keep happening until Tesla change their approach from a move-fast-and-break-things startup philosophy to sound engineering one that puts safety in design front-and-centre. Traditional real-world enigneers have been drilled in this for longer than living memory. When the software guys decide to bring their software appraoches to the real world, this is what happens. From 12 days ago: https://news.ycom…

You do know Tesla has the highest safety rating of any car ever rated in history right? https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tesla-model-s-achieves-best...

In 2013. These days there are higher rated cars in Euro NCAP.

These ratings also don't test the assist features in-depth.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#276

With three accidents on "autopilot" in a short period, the defects in Tesla's design are becoming clear. 1. Tesla's "hands on wheel" enforcement is much weaker than their competitors. BMW, Volvo, and Mercedes have similar systems, but after a few seconds of hands-off-wheel, the vehicle will start to slow. Tesla allows minutes of hands-off time; one customer reports driving 50 miles without touching the wheel. Tesla i…

Tesla's autopilot behavior after a crash is terrible. It doesn't stop. In the semitrailer crash, the vehicle continued under power for several hundred feet Are we sure it continued under power? The Tesla is a heavy vehicle, with weight centred close to the ground. Momentum could easily have carried it several hundred feet after a high speed collision.

There's a report on electrek.co somewhere showing a google map of the crash site and where the car ended up. The car ended up a quarter mile down the road and had passed through a fence or two and some grass. There's also a report somewhere of a driver who says he made the same turn as the truck and followed the car as it continued down the road. Seems like it was under power. NHTSA, NTSB or Tesla could confirm with the data.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#277
post #12
post #5

> "As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted the driver to put his hands on the wheel," said Tesla. "He did not do so and shortly thereafter the vehicle collided with a post on the edge of the roadway." If the autopilot's confidence was dropping that rapidly, why did it not slow the vehicle? If it hits zero confidence it should halt completely until the driver restarts the car in man…

I think you'll find suddenly braking in the middle of the road poses its own dangers.

The "Autopilot" (aka Lane Assist) of my VW does that. If you don't get your hands on the wheel after it wants you to do (which is about 10-15s) and after a first warning it will hit the brakes with a lot of power for the fraction of a second.

So it's not actually stopping but giving you a clear signal that you should do something and would wake you up if you fell asleep. I don't know if it will come to a stop if you also ignore this warning, because it's not something you want to test with other participants on the road behind you.

I think that's the important difference: This system actively disencourages the driver from fully relying on the system while Teslas implementation does not seem to do it.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#278

Tesla needs (or is going to be forced) to issue a recall soon. Putting "beta" technology in a car isn't OK when it puts drivers and others on the road in danger. This is especially problematic because people have a preconceived notion of what "auto pilot" means and just because Tesla says it's not ready for prime time so therefore you should "keep your hands on the wheel" doesn't make it OK to put into production.

Tesla doesn't do recalls. They have OTA software updates

They do actually, remember the titanium protective plate retrofit a year or so back on the Model S? There have also been various drive train issues and such.

IIRC think the Model X had a problem with the headrest already that resulted in full recall.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#279
> "As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted the driver to put his hands on the wheel," said Tesla. "He did not do so and shortly thereafter the vehicle collided with a post on the edge of the roadway."

This is the real danger of autopilot: not that it is unreliable but that humans are lazy and don't think rare events (like dangerous situations that result in a crash without intervention) don't happen to them.

I'm not sure autopilot is a good middle ground between assistance and full automation exactly because of what these accidents show. It basically makes the typical ride so uneventful and mind-numbingly boring drivers stop paying attention and become unable to react appropriately when a dangerous situation does occur.

Cruise control had similar problems: it reduces speeding-related accidents (because drivers are less likely to micro-optimize their speed) but it increases the risk of rear-ending because drivers don't have to stay as alert for the majority of the driving (and then miss those situations in which they need to react quickly).

Humans are not good at staying attentive for extended periods of timing, especially when nothing ever happens. Self-driving cars can fix this by removing the need for human intervention, but autopilot seems like one of those technologies that should be safer in theory but ultimately fails to consider the human factor.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But OTA updates can disable the feature, which is the essential safety response right now. Even if they wanted to recall and add sensors, I don't think that would make this system safe enough - the bigger issue is the human factor involved in a not-quite-good-enough autonomous vehicle.

With the PS/Linux decision, not sure they can just 'disable' the feature.

Not sure exactly to what you're referring, but if it involves hacking your Tesla to re-enable it,

a) that will vastly reduce the level of usage, and b) the OTA update could very well completely remove the code from storage, making the job of hacking a much more involved process than just enabling a flag.

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