Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug • Hacker News Board

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#271

Post by mindcrime » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 5:49 AM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #269

mindcrime wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything libertarian leads to an everyone for themselves hellscape How in the world do you arrive at that conclusion? Personally, I can't imagine anything being further from the truth...

It seems the Libertarian mindset would lead someone who survived a plane crash to think that they chose the right seat, and those who died must have had poor seat choosing ability. Instead of it just being chaotic luck. The Libertarian mindset heavily relies on survival bias. There are a lot of things outside of ones control in life, and while you can try to shape the direction in your life with personal choice, not…

It seems the Libertarian mindset would lead someone who survived a plane crash to think that they chose the right seat, and those who died must have had poor seat choosing ability.

TBH, that sounds like a complete caricature of a Libertarian thinker from where I'm sitting. Maybe there are people like that out there, and maybe some of them self-identify as Libertarians (or libertarians) but there's nothing inherent in the Libertarian world-view that would lead to such a position.

There are a lot of things outside of ones control in life, and while you can try to shape the direction in your life with personal choice, not everyone starts from the same spot, not all situations are the same, and not all risks pay off.

That's absolutely true, and of the Libertarians I know, I don't think I know a single one who would contest that.

Source: am a Libertarian.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#272

Post by cplease » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 5:50 AM UTC

100 million Americans struggled from chronic pain in the 1990s? (linked video) One in three men, women, and children, suffered from pathological, chronic pain? How can they quote a ludicrous statistic like that straight without comment?

Or is that straight statement supposed to distort some watered down, meaningless figure factoid like 100 million people have lingering pain due to some cause at some point in their entire?

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#273

Post by sgift » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 5:59 AM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #64

evincarofautumn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an alcoholic. I’ve cut back on my use significantly, and I’m currently in a period of abstinence. Because alcohol is legal and socially accepted, it’s entirely my responsibility to manage my behaviour and keep my use to non-problematic levels. Not everyone has the social support to make that happen. I think legalisation would be beneficial, as you say, because the criminal justice system does not serve addicts. H…

Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users. Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse the…

> Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction?

Replace drug use with something else and you get to the basic question of society. "Why should someone have to support someone else?" - a philosophical question. You have to decide for yourself what the answer is - for me it is simple: Because helping others is what society is all about, without that we are nothing more than individuals in an "everyone for himself!"-scenario, which doesn't strike me as the kind of place I want to live in.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#274

Post by Klinky » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 6:04 AM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #271

Klinky wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems the Libertarian mindset would lead someone who survived a plane crash to think that they chose the right seat, and those who died must have had poor seat choosing ability. Instead of it just being chaotic luck. The Libertarian mindset heavily relies on survival bias. There are a lot of things outside of ones control in life, and while you can try to shape the direction in your life with personal choice, not…

It seems the Libertarian mindset would lead someone who survived a plane crash to think that they chose the right seat, and those who died must have had poor seat choosing ability. TBH, that sounds like a complete caricature of a Libertarian thinker from where I'm sitting. Maybe there are people like that out there, and maybe some of them self-identify as Libertarians (or libertarians) but there's nothing inherent in…

Probably not all Libertarians are the same, but most I've dealt with have a selfish arrogance about the outcome of the choices they've made, and ignorance about the plight of others. There is also a strong desire to dismantle regulations and safety nets, because of a belief that it would bring immediate benefit themselves. The Libertopian ideal really does sound like a privatized "hellscape", which the Libertarians obviously think they would be the CEOs of.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#275

Post by cat-dev-null » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 6:13 AM UTC

facetube wrote: post #52

disposeofnick9 wrote: post #28

I've lost at least two elderly, extended family members this way. Both applied both a patch and took a pill, which caused an OD. The issue is that many opioids and non opioids gap between the therapeutic dose range and LD50% is often dangerously narrow. Complication #0: serum bioavailable molecule assay is rarely monitored. People metabolize and clear drugs at vastly differently rates. Complication #1: Hospital mista…

Complication #0 actually seems even worse when private insurance is tossed in to the mix: much of the monitoring that would be prudent is excluded by my employer-based insurance company as "not medically necessary". For example, I can't get them to pay for a CYP2D6 test to determine if I'm an ultrarapid metabolizer of a particular drug, nor can I get them to pay for blood level monitoring of the active metabolite to…

Argh, that's frustrating. Perhaps biohacker folks may work on how cheap the chems are for these sorts of tests "unapproved" DIY/out-of-pocket way to do it? This seems like a TED / TEDx speaker-worthy problem begging for a cheaper/easier solution.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#276

Post by sgift » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 6:18 AM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #69

md224 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting view. What I find problematic is equating drug use with being "high." Sure, you can use enough of a drug that it impairs you, but you can also use less than that. Some may refer to this as "microdosing" but I think this gets it backwards. If anything, drugs are useful tools that can also be "macrodosed" by those wishing to experience extreme effects. I would like to live in a world where all drugs are leg…

I'm curious what life-enriching experience you can have with "a little bit" of heroin or meth.

Lack of horrible pain, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxycodone which is in the same category as Heroin.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#277

Post by mindcrime » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 6:19 AM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #274

mindcrime wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems the Libertarian mindset would lead someone who survived a plane crash to think that they chose the right seat, and those who died must have had poor seat choosing ability. TBH, that sounds like a complete caricature of a Libertarian thinker from where I'm sitting. Maybe there are people like that out there, and maybe some of them self-identify as Libertarians (or libertarians) but there's nothing inherent in…

Probably not all Libertarians are the same, but most I've dealt with have a selfish arrogance about the outcome of the choices they've made, and ignorance about the plight of others. There is also a strong desire to dismantle regulations and safety nets, because of a belief that it would bring immediate benefit themselves. The Libertopian ideal really does sound like a privatized "hellscape", which the Libertarians o…

There is also a strong desire to dismantle regulations and safety nets, because of a belief that it would bring immediate benefit them.

I would guess that most of those people are not terribly well educated in the basis of Libertarian thought. That's a pretty naive interpretation of it anyway.

Anyway, I'd love to continue this conversation, but it's probably veering close to (or into) "off topic" territory, so I'll just drop this here.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#278

Post by mistermann » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 6:25 AM UTC

sgift wrote: post #273

twblalock wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users. Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse the…

> Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? Replace drug use with something else and you get to the basic question of society. "Why should someone have to support someone else?" - a philosophical question. You have to decide for yourself what the answer is - for me it is simple: Because helping others is what society is…

That's a very positive way to communicate the policy of the genuine left.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#279

Post by ImTalking » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 6:38 AM UTC

gohrt wrote: post #262

krschultz wrote: post #15

I've never taken an illegal drug in my life. I've smoked a cigarette about 5 times. I drank in college but lately I've cut that out of my life as well. I had a security clearance with drug testing requirements for a while and now I just don't like the feeling of a hangover from alcohol or the risk of ingesting random plants/chemicals made by shady people. In short: I'm the most vanilla, square, anti-drug person you c…

Drugs should be illegal (or at least highly controlled) because they are extremely dangerous. Drug users should not be criminalized. It's as simple as that.

Any discussion around 'harm' must include alcohol, nicotine, and pharma-opiates.

Re: Painkillers now kill more Americans than any illegal drug

#280

Post by Hollenbrand » Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 6:39 AM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #64

evincarofautumn wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an alcoholic. I’ve cut back on my use significantly, and I’m currently in a period of abstinence. Because alcohol is legal and socially accepted, it’s entirely my responsibility to manage my behaviour and keep my use to non-problematic levels. Not everyone has the social support to make that happen. I think legalisation would be beneficial, as you say, because the criminal justice system does not serve addicts. H…

Why should your drug use, or anyone else's, create obligations for other people to support you, treat you, and help you overcome addiction? The libertarian case for legalizing drugs falls apart if society has to take responsibility for providing support systems as a reaction to the actions of individual drug users. Frankly, most people would rather continue to ban drugs than pay for treatment for people who abuse the…

Three years ago I would have agreed with you that it is not the responsibility of society to help addicts. Having a brother who has struggled with heroin addiction has changed my views, however. He's been clinically dead twice, before being brought back to life by paramedics, and has woken up next to a dead body after a night of abusing the drug. Addiction is often a consequence of underlying mental problems which need to be addressed before addiction can be overcome. It's not even necessarily a matter of increased taxes to pay for addiction treatment, but rather a restructuring of the way the money is used. Take Portugal as an example. They decided to treat drug abuse as a public health issue, decriminalizing all drugs and redirecting the money formerly used to enforce drug law to helping addicts. Their drug use has declined.

According to a Harvard Medical School study, nearly 35% of Medicare patients were prescribed an opioid from more than one doctor at the time of the study, and 1/3 of this group got opioid prescriptions from four or more doctors. Is this not creating obligations for the rest of us?

You would think that you pay the costs of law enforcement to enforce drug law, but many police forces are underfunded and rely on profits from seized drug money and speeding tickets to fund themselves.