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What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

nytimes.com

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Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#271

Post by mcguire »

gaius wrote: post #47
Mithaldu wrote: post #6

So the salient point to me seem to be: Girls are put off by how computer culture styles itself in nerdy ways. Ok, i can kind of get that. On the other hand, i don't like it much because she seems to be saying "hiding positive expressions about things you like could be helpful". I'm all for increasing diversity, but that should happen by bringing in more things and widening horizons. If that means "Sex and the City",…

i don't like it much because she seems to be saying "hiding positive expressions about things you like could be helpful" Quite. The person who happens to like sci-fi isn't motivated by excluding anyone; they like it because they like it and will share their enthusiasm with anyone. Has that person intentionally done something wrong? And if not why should they be censured for it? That is the elephant in the corner of t…

"The person who happens to like sci-fi isn't motivated by excluding anyone; they like it because they like it and will share their enthusiasm with anyone."

You sure about that? I know quite a few people who are seemingly only interested in science fiction and gaming it its various forms and aggressively disinterested in anything else. Maybe you know some, too: people who use terms like "sports ball" and whatever the current incarnation of "mundane" (as a noun) or "muggle" is. Believe me, it's no more appealing than hanging with a group of, say, serious football fans (for the appropriate value of "football").

I don't feel the need to demonize anyone, but decent people doing what they feel are innocent things can successfully masquerade as a conspiracy for as long as you care to watch.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#272

Post by hackuser »

omonra wrote: post #178

I don't get something. There seems to always has been a problem of diversity in tech. Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world. Why is this a problem (something the writer - who is a literature professor, by the way) considers a given? Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect (except employment opportunities for the otherwise und…

I think it's a serious problem when more than half of society is denied a fair opportunity.

> Yet US has done just ok with males (white and asian) doing this stuff. Ie better than anybody else in the world.

That doesn't mean the US and others can't do much better. Think how much talent is lost - more than half of it. There's a shortage of talent in SV. There is much that needs to be done in the world.

> Is there any proof that increased diversity has any effect

I've read about a lot of evidence that more diverse groups make decisions significantly better.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#273

Post by [deleted] »

pervycreeper wrote: post #236

Here is a page linking the writeups of the studies that were referenced in the article. https://faculty.washington.edu/scheryan/research.htm One question which perhaps should be made explicit: Who ought to be responsible for remedying the negative stereotypes that young women hold about computer programmers and STEM workers? And who is affected most negatively by attitudes such as they hold? Maybe creative writing pr…

[deleted]

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#274

Post by muddyrivers »

duaneb wrote: post #251

No matter who you are, applying broad strokes to the industry is going to paint many incorrectly. The idea that there is one factor that "really" keeps women out of tech implies that the other reasons are false. In reality, it is very subjective. I would also have been put off by her experience with pressure to "act like a man" and I'm a man. But, just as anecdotally, I only encountered this once: the cs department o…

I am a software engineer, male, Asian. Somehow I can relate to the article. Although I was always one of the top students in math and science and enrolled the top university, I was both intimidated and kind of disgusted by the culture stereotypes at the beginning of my career. I had self doubts if I would ever become a good software engineer, since I was far from the stereotypes. Sometimes, I was deeply disgusted by the childishness and shallowness of the stereotypes.

I rarely play video games. (I played some in college, simply for finding bugs and backdoors so that I could win easily, not for the fun of playing itself. After one year, it became boring and I stopped.) I don't like Star Wars. I am not in particular interested in Sci-fi. I think the time can be better spent in other books. For example, the non-technical books I just finished are Madame Bovary (translated by Lydia Davis. Highly recommend), On the Move (autobiography by Oliver Sacks). I am re-reading The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers. Also, I don't like beer. When I go out with colleagues, I drink wine or strong liquors.

I can tell my colleagues what I like now, but it was different when I first joined the industry. I cram-watched all the Star Wars, most Star Treks, etc. I forced myself to finish some popular sci-fi novels. I drank beer when going out. It was like you are trying to fit yourself into a model that is not you. I still remember one scene during the first week of one job. All the engineers were playing Guitar Hero, loudly, when waiting for a push. They invited me, which I greatly appreciate. I said I didn't know how to play and I rarely played video games. They were astounded. One engineer said, "It is not a game. It is a life style."

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#275

Post by hackuser »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #238
ashworth wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What??? My childhood best friend and college roommate shocked me by calling one of our CS classmates a "huge bitch" for not going on a date with him after they had lunch together our first week of college. I've lost track of how many sexist lines I've heard, like: "make me a sammich bitch, haha", "don't be an emo bitch about it, haha", "if we don't let people freely express themselves on the CS listserv, then this is…

> bitch Unfortunately, that's how college kids talk. I wish they wouldn't be so crude, but the language isn't CS-specific. That women in general are doing so well in college in general relative to men suggests crude language on the part of college men is not a serious problem. In the professional world, that kind of denigration would be completely unacceptable. > Also, let me tell you this story of two friends I knew…

> that's how college kids talk

That wasn't my experience at all. That kind of attitude or language would have been taboo.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#276

Post by mcguire »

pavornyoh wrote: post #19

> What really keeps women out of Tech? It is because they don't want to be there. The opportunity is there for everyone to take thus men and women. I actually think women have an advantage in this space and it is up to them to see it and advantage of it. As a woman, I am tired this. If you want it, go and get it. There shouldn't be any special treatment. Prove you deserve to be at the table, prove you deserve to be t…

Schema for gender discussion in tech, version 3.c.ii:

1. An article is posted wherein a woman describes wanting to be in tech and not doing so due to active and passive opposition.

2. Many comments discussing how women aren't in tech because they don't want to be there.

I swear, these threads are all straight out of How to Suppress Women's Writing by Joanna Russ (a book I strongly recommend; it's absolutely hi-damn-larious.)

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#277

Post by colomon »

tptacek wrote: post #143
omegaham wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll confirm this anecdotally. My sister was extremely good at math and science... until the end of middle school, when she started hanging out in earnest with her friends. Her friends thought that any intellectual interest was nerdy and stupid, and my sister acted accordingly. Now, the girl who was easily learning algebra in elementary school "just can't do math." I think that the big difference in STEM is that nerd…

There are hundreds of thousands of boys who excel at math and science until their bodies mature to the point where they become competitive at track or football. Unlike "hanging out with friends", a universal activity, extracurricular sports actually do conflict with early computer science exploration (they're a huge time sink, as any parent of a kid in a sport will attest). Meanwhile, sports draws in more boys than g…

Huh? I lettered in three sports, plus played in multiple musical groups and was on the quiz bowl team, and still found plenty of time to learn to program in assembly language and Forth.

(Though it is true I did very little partying.)

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#278

Post by T2_t2 »

gdubs wrote: post #265

One thing I noticed / learned about when we had our child is that we are all social creatures. We yearn to be with others like ourselves and to fit in. It's an incredibly strong pull, and the attitude of "if they really were interested, they'd be interested" that is prominent here greatly underestimates how strong our desire to fit in is. In poor neighborhoods, few rise out of their situations to become scholars and…

> We yearn to be with others like ourselves and to fit in.

The idea is that this is what "keeps people out". Surely, the flip side is true, and people are defined / made happy by the same notions.

People in the west are so far up Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that we've stopped caring about the basics of life. Specifically, of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs#... we no longer choose a job that gives us food, shelter or safety (the first two), and instead we choose jobs based on how well it provides us with love/belonging, esteem and self-actualisation. That is why young people choose jobs less and less with money as the sole or even primary determinant.

If this is the case, that people are choosing professions that help them feel self-actualised or belonging, no matter what tech does, or what Public Relations, Child-care workers or predominantly female dominated occupations do, is less important that the people it attracts / already has attracted. And these same sorts of people will dominate, as this belonging and fitting in becomes increasingly entrenched, and snowballs on itself like runaway recurssion.

That seems, to me, the logical conclusion of slight biological gender differences combined with a rise up the pyramid of needs, which lessens the pressure of the former two to create cultures that trump biology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiJVJ5QRRUE is a documentary about Scandinavia's attitude to gender relations, and the whole series is brilliant, and shows that gender separation is, if not inevitable, certainly understandable.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#279

Post by icanhackit »

natvod wrote: post #76

Ok so I'm a girl who codes/programs and I'm my take on the issues she raised: Stereotypes about STEM fields putting girls off I can only talk about my own experience but I saw very few negative stereotypes about STEM fields growing up. Definitely not enough to put off girls. However, while I did start coding at a young age, I didn't apply my skill to a work/business purpose until my twenties. Why? I think this issue…

Great post though I'd like to add some thoughts to this bit: the professional/business world as a whole rewards and values masculine traits (competitiveness, talking highly of yourself and accomplishments, etc.)

I'd argue those are better classified as extroverted traits rather than masculine traits. Believe me, there are more than a few males that suffer from this being the dominant culture in business (or anywhere). Of course it makes sense though - introverted culture is more introspective thus not as dominating by nature. If there was ever going to be a winner, especially if the business has a focus on sales, it was going to be the one that rewards competitiveness and confidence.

I'd say the next big battle in workplace equality is going to focus on treating introversion fairly. I've seen MBTI's, a kind of personality test, used to define who a business hires and fires despite them claiming otherwise (forgetting that MBTI tests are pseudoscience). You can guess which personality types they prefer, regardless of gender. They want "rockstars".

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#280

Post by tptacek »

colomon wrote: post #277
tptacek wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are hundreds of thousands of boys who excel at math and science until their bodies mature to the point where they become competitive at track or football. Unlike "hanging out with friends", a universal activity, extracurricular sports actually do conflict with early computer science exploration (they're a huge time sink, as any parent of a kid in a sport will attest). Meanwhile, sports draws in more boys than g…

Huh? I lettered in three sports, plus played in multiple musical groups and was on the quiz bowl team, and still found plenty of time to learn to program in assembly language and Forth. (Though it is true I did very little partying.)

That's my point.
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