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The Unemployable Programmer

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Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#261

Post by Tyguy7 »

mkozlows wrote: post #82

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing…

I completely agree. I am self taught, started learning code about 6 years ago, and I get recruiters contacting me and job offers constantly. It's gets annoying actually. A guy without a degree getting calls about 6 figure jobs on a regular basis sure sounds like he'd be in a different industry than the guy who wrote this article. When I hear developers with degrees complaining about how hard it is to find work these days I'm completely baffled. Software engineering is one of the best fields to be in today with an overabundance of jobs available. I start to wonder about developers who say they can't find work. What's really going on?

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#262

Post by joeax »

I think it's critically important to get involved in a open source project in some way or create your own, i.e. on GitHub. My project svidget.js is up to 154 stars (at the time of this post). It not mind blowing stats, and it may be niche, but it's in a space (SVG and data visualization) that I enjoy.

The benefits are plentiful. I've learned more about JavaScript that I thought possible. It also demonstrates you have a passion for technology and it's just not a job. You have the satisfaction that are helping others solve technological challenges. If anything, you are more marketable which is the point of that article. Good recruiters and hiring managers look beyond your resume and looks for way that you standout.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#263

Post by throwaway3789 »

igth wrote: post #41

Reading stories like these really, really scares me. I'm European, and next year my wife and I will most likely move to the US together (long story short: she is a US citizen, we have decided to move, and have already applied). I'm super excited about that. I currently work as a Rails developer, have a diverse background as a Linux sysadmin and developer, and have never had problems finding (or keeping) work where I…

Be careful with that. US have very different divorce laws and courts favors women.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#264

Post by Khao »

chii wrote: post #216
Khao wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are terrible at interviews. A few months ago I interviewed a developer in his thirties who had a great looking resume. Worked on lots of big projects in positions of both making decisions about software architecture, technology to use, etc.. and also being a programmer doing the actual work. His resume was really awesome. When we received him in our interview, we asked him to tell us a bit about his past…

> developer was good when he's working alone on a project with no one to talk to or he/she could have faked the resume, or dressed it in a good way. I find that excellent programmers tend to be good communicators, because good, clean programming is about communicating with future programmers (which could be yourself in 5 yrs time). Having clarity in thought and being able to express ideas to other people is so crucia…

He might have made it look better but it definitely wasn't fake, since he worked at one company I had previously worked at too. We weren't there at the same time but I asked him which team he worked in, who he worked with, who was his team lead, etc.. and he gave me all legit answers. We talked about the processes there and what he liked/disliked since we had both worked in the same environment.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#265

Post by mcv »

mkozlows wrote: post #82

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing…

I've got a friend who was out of the dev world for 7 years, I think. He was originally working on his PhD when he got RSI and couldn't touch a computer anymore. He became a store security guard. Not much of a career, but he met lots of people every day (he's remarkably gregarious for a programmer). Eventually, though, he wanted to get back into software. First tried his own company for a year, which failed, but did get him some experience with javascript. Then he got a job as ruby/javascript developer.

I assume he started at the bottom, since he didn't have any real dev experience yet, but he had no problem finding that job, and he's doing quite well there.

My impression is that it's really not hard to get into software. You do have to be realistic, though; maybe you don't come across as quite as senior as you imagine yourself to be.

Admittedly, this was in Netherland, not the US. The situation might be different in the US.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#266

Post by [deleted] »

jcadam wrote: post #69

Hmm... I'm a 35 year old programmer and I work in Defense/Aerospace. If you think finding a good developer is hard, try finding a good developer who also holds a security clearance. If you're any good at all, you will always be employed and well compensated. The work can be dull, with Vogon-esque processes and procedures, but I have side projects to keep me sane :) Every couple of years (ok, at least every year) I'll…

[deleted]

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#267

Post by supercanuck »

Reading this and other posts, is there even a market for an American Mediocre Programmer?

Seems like employers would rather just hire a H1-B from TCS instead because then they know are tied to them via the H1-B, whereas a mediocre programmer who is trained up would become a better programmer and might leave once they are good at their salary doesn't commensurate?

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#268

Post by 3minus1 »

strathmeyer wrote: post #139

I got a degree but am still unemployable because I didn't have a job when I graduated and apparently nobody hires unemployed people. It's like there's just some tiny step I need to get over. Recently a recruiters said all I needed was a little Java experience and I could be making a lot of money. But I have plenty of Java experience, why can't I find a job anywhere? The worst thing about all of this is how harsh and…

Keep trying. It's a numbers game and as long as you're getting interviews you're on the right track.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#269

Post by potatolicious »

woah wrote: post #251
vonmoltke wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd say it goes deeper than this: there's a greater emphasis today on the candidate being productive from day one. Which drives me crazy. Nobody can be truly productive on day one. You have processes to learn, even if it is just an informal "way we do things". You have existing code to become familiar with. You have team dynamics to work into. It takes time. Personally, I cringe whenever I read a job advert mention…

I think that you don't get it about pushing to production on day one. These companies do that to because they have resilient systems, tests, and tooling, and they push to production all the time. Pushing to production on day one is a way to introduce new hires to the continuous deployment methodology. If you're afraid of pushing to production, there's a problem.

I don't think it's the fear of pushing to production on day one, but that a day one employee would not yet be able to produce anything worthwhile enough to push.

A very well tested codebase with resilient systems and tooling takes time to learn, it will take time for a person to become productive within it - and that time is a lot longer than the 4 or so hours you get on your first day after the legal paperwork is done ;)

So pushing on day one - regardless of dangers it poses to the system - seems like pushing to production for the sake of pushing to production.

On another note though - I've worked at companies that have adhered to best practices and done remarkably well with continuous deployment and testing, but the risk of a pushing code to production is never zero. The intent of testing and resiliency is to reduce the odds of catastrophe and increase your confidence in your systems - not to make you overly cavalier.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#270

Post by jcadam »

logfromblammo wrote: post #159
jcadam wrote: post #69

Hmm... I'm a 35 year old programmer and I work in Defense/Aerospace. If you think finding a good developer is hard, try finding a good developer who also holds a security clearance. If you're any good at all, you will always be employed and well compensated. The work can be dull, with Vogon-esque processes and procedures, but I have side projects to keep me sane :) Every couple of years (ok, at least every year) I'll…

The shortage of developers with clearance is exacerbated by the number of people with clearance who want to exit the defense contractor ecosystem, because it's a military-industrial clusterfuck from top to bottom. They hire us for our brains, and then tell us not to use them. Except we can't get out because of two factors: 1. The non-defense ecosystem won't fix their insane hiring processes. 2. If you do actually get…

You have summed up my thoughts exactly.
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