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Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

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Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#261

Post by analyst74 »

ctdonath wrote: post #115
lars wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drug war is part of it. But the big thing to fix is income inequality. High income inequality is correlated with higher homicide rate, higher robbery rate, lower civic participation, higher mortality, lower social cohesion and lower well-being in children. So many social problems are strongly predicted by this variable, yet many refuse to consider inequality to be a problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_…

Many consider inequality a symptom/consequence of one's own chosen behavior, not a cause. (ETA "chosen behavior" clause.)

large scale inequality is the symptom of lack of social mobility. If poor people are able to work hard and become rich, there wouldn't be such large difference in wealth.

Inequality starts from inequality of opportunities.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#262

Post by mercer »

beat wrote: post #214
ctdonath wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many consider inequality a symptom/consequence of one's own chosen behavior, not a cause. (ETA "chosen behavior" clause.)

It's usually people who have never been poor that think that. (I've been poor. I don't think that.)

Same here! I find that when you spend the time to actually inspect this concept of 'chosen behavior', it usually turns out to be much less chosen than it initially seems.

Don't get me wrong, in some ways my opinions on the issue enter the very sensitive topic of genetics. I'm by no means a 'fluffy lefty' who believes education solves everything.

But the mere fact that I need to point that out bothers me. From my perspective, without even getting into genetics and whatnot, the 'chosen behavior' thought in regards to the poor is mostly bullshit. Being poor sucks, and a big part of that is a consequence of the fact that society penalizes poverty. Merit doesn't really enter the equation.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#263

Post by beat »

netfire wrote: post #258
beat wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the aid isn't itself racial. That's a myth. Have you ever had to apply for any sort of public assistance? The process is tremendously slow, complex, and bureaucratic, driven largely by layers of demands for proof that the aid is actually necessary. The basic takeaway of this process for the person in need isn't feeling like a victim, but rather feeling like society assumes you're a lazy thief.

You say its a myth, but then don't provide not explanation as to why. I guess I don't understand how race-restricted aid isn't racial. By restricting assistance, scholarships and other aid to a particular race aren't you in essence saying that you care more about helping people of a certain race than you do about helping people of other races? If a person is in the same circumstances, economic or otherwise, as anothe…

I'm saying that there isn't any race-restricted aid. You're saying there is. You're wrong about that. Feel free to prove otherwise.

And sure, you can bring up some scholarship as an exception that proves the rule (I wonder how Daughters of the American Revolution scholarships fit?). But that's a very weak argument. I'm talking about the welfare state in general, and it is pointedly not about race.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#264

Post by beat »

mercer wrote: post #262
beat wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's usually people who have never been poor that think that. (I've been poor. I don't think that.)

Same here! I find that when you spend the time to actually inspect this concept of 'chosen behavior', it usually turns out to be much less chosen than it initially seems. Don't get me wrong, in some ways my opinions on the issue enter the very sensitive topic of genetics. I'm by no means a 'fluffy lefty' who believes education solves everything. But the mere fact that I need to point that out bothers me. From my pers…

It's a privilege argument. I'm getting very sensitive to privilege issues lately.

I lifted myself out of poverty. I grew up in what southerners call "white trash" (albeit upper middle white trash), and my father was more or less a petty criminal. But I'm well aware that being white, male, smart, and American all contributed heavily to my success. I'm the beneficiary of privilege.

Far, far too many people (and you can see it in this discussion) were born on second base and think they hit a double.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#265

Post by temujin »

lars wrote: post #106
CPLX wrote: post #48

There's all this discussion of these issues, which relate to racism, economic issues, police brutality, crime, etc. They seem complicated and nuanced and people throw their hands up and say well what can we do. The answer to that question is actually so simple you can say it in four words: End the drug war. Someone far more eloquent than me, The Wire creator David Simon, can flesh that out a little: http://www.washin…

The drug war is part of it. But the big thing to fix is income inequality. High income inequality is correlated with higher homicide rate, higher robbery rate, lower civic participation, higher mortality, lower social cohesion and lower well-being in children. So many social problems are strongly predicted by this variable, yet many refuse to consider inequality to be a problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_…

In the US, yes. In China, not so much.

For all the correlations which are greatly attenuated in China, it is safe to conclude that inequality is not a significant cause of the corresponding phenomenon; instead, causation goes the other direction and/or a third factor causes both.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#266

Post by pyrocat »

mc32 wrote: post #169
sbov wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't that we're throwing them in jail for no reason . The problem is we aren't throwing non-poor non-minorities in jail for the same reasons. Most friends of mine regularly do drugs. Even the self made multi millionaires. None of them have been to jail. They aren't subject to the random ass searches like the poor are. If things were different - if the millionaires were treated with the same suspect, you…

Growing up I lived in a town where there were hippy dealers and there were dreadlock dealers. They both got harrassed pretty evenly and the users I knew also would get stopped and issued summonses for small possession. The police would also confiscate beer in the car, etc. They were nice enough not to cite us for underage drinking, but I think the police were busy with the car thieves and guys testing out the small t…

>> it was mostly due to neighbors calling in "suspicious activity" i.e. being black

FTFY

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#267

Post by pyrocat »

darkroasted wrote: post #260
beat wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think the drug war was the problem. Not anymore. Think about the high-profile police shootings of unarmed black men over the past year. Not a single one of those was over drugs. They were all "walking while black". Ending the drug war would not, on its own, end the "walking while black" problem. The family structure breakdown among the poor is directly, painfully correlated to the high incarceration rate. A…

" The family structure breakdown among the poor is directly, painfully correlated to the high incarceration rate. Absent fathers are absent because they're in jail, or expect they will be sooner or later, or because they're ashamed because they are unable to provide for their children. " The Moynihan report decrying the break down of black families was released in 1965, before the drug war, at a time when incarcerati…

It sounds like you have a bone to pick with black men. Try reading some recent data: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/20/upshot/missing...

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#268

Post by CPLX »

beat wrote: post #254
CPLX wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're saying this is not about drugs. That's correct. That's a distinct statement from saying it's not about the war on drugs. It's definitely about that.

To push it farther, I'm saying the war on drugs is a symptom, not a cause - it's rooted in racism. So it's not about drugs... it's about race.

Yes, the war on drugs is an effect, and racism is the cause. If that's what you're saying then we agree.

But on a practical level, the war on drugs is the means by which institutional racism is most likely to be prosecuted in this country. So to some extent many racist acts are the effect of the racist war on drugs.

Perhaps a distinction without a difference. Clearly our drug policy and racism are deeply intertwined. Many do in fact disagree with that or are ignorant of it.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#269

Post by anukulrm »

pessimizer wrote: post #28
neverminder wrote: post #6

> The United States has 5% of the world’s population but 25% of the world’s prisoners. This sums it up for me.

African-American males are 0.25% of the world's population, but 10% of the world's prisoners.

This. Before we can fix anything that requires a majority of the nation's participation, we need awareness and acknowledgement that racial inequality is deep rooted in the American psyche. A lot of posters even here on HN seem to think race is irrelevant or a minor point.

Re: Policing, Mass Imprisonment, and the Failure of American Lawyers

#270

Post by darkroasted »

pyrocat wrote: post #267
darkroasted wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" The family structure breakdown among the poor is directly, painfully correlated to the high incarceration rate. Absent fathers are absent because they're in jail, or expect they will be sooner or later, or because they're ashamed because they are unable to provide for their children. " The Moynihan report decrying the break down of black families was released in 1965, before the drug war, at a time when incarcerati…

It sounds like you have a bone to pick with black men. Try reading some recent data: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/20/upshot/missing...

It's a structural issue and is very hard to fix. Men, everywhere, do what is needed to get sex. If women and the institutions of society do not require a commitment from the man in order to have children, then men will not give such a commitment. Why would they? But traditionally it is the father who restricts access to his daughter, or trains his daughter not to open up so easily. So fatherlessness begets fatherlessness.
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