1.5 Million Missing Black Men • Hacker News Board

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#261

Post by omonra » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:45 PM UTC

picks_at_nits wrote: post #193

omonra wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'sorry' part referred to my comment sticking out like a sore thumb. Every other comment goes on about racism, etc - while I see a problem inherent in the subset of individuals themselves. It's a social thing - to prepare the reader for what may strike them as an unpleasant (yet I believe is true) perspective.

> It's a social thing - to prepare the reader for what may strike them as an unpleasant (yet I believe is true) perspective I’m perfectly aware of what this is supposed to do on the surface, but I am sharing with you that there is a discrepancy between what you claim to be doing and how at least one person perceives what you are actually doing. You may think that you’re preparing the reader for an unpleasant truth, b…

It's like an Asperger points competition here :)

My take is that it's a polite thing to do. Like when a doctor says 'Sorry, this might sting a bit' before they do something. The doctor is not sorry - they're simply acknowledging that they are about to do something unpleasant because they are being polite.

So is this.

I feel that majority of people commenting are afraid to face the truth because they think acknowledging it makes them racist. Well that's what make me say 'Sorry' - as verbalizing it pierces their self-created bubble in which certain thoughts are considered crimethink.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#262

Post by burkaman » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:45 PM UTC

im3w1l wrote: post #241

kaa2102 wrote: post #20

I'm a Black Man. Growing up there was a realization that being alive and out of trouble over the age of 21 was an accomplishment. This would extend to middle class. Due to a history of American apartheid, there were often just a few degrees of separation between middle class and working/poor class kin.

I hope you don't mind me asking you this. I've had this idea, that I think may make the situation better. They idea is that in black-on-black, as well as victimless crimes, the defendant is allowed to be judged by a jury of black people. Then the black community can decide for itself what punishments are best for the community, and could give more lenient punishments if the current ones are seen as harsh enough to be…

This just sounds like another version of separate but equal. I understand the logic, but we want to work toward one big united community, not legally define racial communities. It's pretty obvious historically that separation doesn't work at all.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#263

Post by stickfigure » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:46 PM UTC

omonra wrote: post #122

learc83 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A huge number of people are in jail for commiting violent crimes that while not labled "drug related", are still related to the war on drugs. Drug prohibition funds gangs and cartels, which directly leads to a host of other crimes. If you ended the war on drugs, it's likely that the prison population would drop by much more than 20%.

I'm not sure that's a given. Ie once drug trade loses its profitability, I expect the individuals involved in it to move to something else (but hardly to other poorly paid jobs requiring commensurate levels of education). Ie - did ending of prohibition bring the end of the organized crime?

I would be perfectly happy to accept a massive reduction in organized crime, even if it doesn't end.

Crime is not perfectly fungible. There just isn't another victimless crime available with this kind of popularity and profitability.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#264

Post by AhrowTway » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:50 PM UTC

They aren't missing. We all know where they are.

You also need to factor in how outsourcing and globalization gutted Detroit (Motown). Poorly educated blacks from the delta came up to urban areas to engage in technological manufacturing jobs and were paid very well for it. The model was so successful that company owners eventually outsourced the entire operation to freshly-destroyed post-Cultural Revolution China and paid them a bowl of rice to do the same work instead.

Blacks went from lower middle class to wards of the state in less than a generation because of that.

But hey, at least you have hundreds of millions of Chinese employed and less than twenty million blacks impoverished instead of the other way around.

Someone has to pay the price for industrial wonder, folks.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#265

Post by javert » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:50 PM UTC

daveloyall wrote: post #175

javert wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US we had segregation, not apartheid. There is a difference. As a white man living in the South, we still have segregation in practice. I rarely had interaction with blacks because they did different things and took different classes at school. We all went to the same schools---just didn't have the same classes or have the same social circles. Not much shared in the way of culture. I have had some black friend…

I grew up white in the south, too. I took me years to really grok how I was part of the problem. Eventually, I figured out that I needed to do this: s/white people/people/g; s/black people/people/g Even today, I almost always have to spend a little cognitive load to patch my own though process at runtime. When I fail to overcome my upbringing, I fail to make new friends. I fail to be funny with strangers. I don't get…

I'm already friendly in equal measure to people of all races.

You are right that white people being friendly is an issue. But that is the fly in the room. Black culture is the elephant.

Admittedly, though, white culture has been in decline since the late 18th century, so that's also a problem. Whites are doing all kinds of things to exacerbate the problem. Like accepting postmodern views that reject individualism and reason in favor of racism, classism, feminism, psychological determinism, and so on. Totally rejecting individual responsibility. In other words, yes, white culture is a huge problem---but not in the way people think.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#266

Post by AhrowTway » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:51 PM UTC

zoner wrote: post #58

Black women are unapproachable. Not sure why is that. Are white males not attractive in black women eyes? The effect is the reverse with white women as they tend to flirt with black man, hence the interracial children are mostly from black males and white females. I don't have a study to support this, but I do have personal experience.

Zero black women were raped by white men last year. I'm not even making that number up.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#267

Post by Crito » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:51 PM UTC

illumen wrote: post #184

Taniwha wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well that and slavery

Is it slavery if people are working for almost free in prison because of some absurd crime and a bullshit justice system? Yes. Therefore slavery still exists. It just got sneaky. Well sort of sneaky - the English were calling their white slaves convicts. When people did crimes like steal bread, they could be sent all the way across the oceans on six month voyages to work. Yeah, they could eventually be free... but ev…

In fact the 13th Amendment explicitly calls out being convicted of a crime as an exception to the "no slavery" thing.

The full text of the amendment:

> Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

> Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

By word count, 30% of the amendment allows slavery under specific circumstances, but somehow that seems to get left out of the curriculum of most american civics classes (that I've seen / gone through anyway).

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#268

Post by benjaminmhaley » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:53 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #13

> The black women left behind find that potential partners of the same race are scarce, while men, who face an abundant supply of potential mates, don’t need to compete as hard to find one. As a result, Mr. Charles said, “men seem less likely to commit to romantic relationships, or to work hard to maintain them.” Interesting, I never thought about this side-effect of mass incarceration. Another aggravating factor in…

> why many middle eastern countries generate so many young angry jihadists

This is akin to wondering why Europeans generated so many young angry crusaders. The term jihadists denotes a religion and a region. Its associated with Middle Eastern countries by definition. Angry young militants from other religions and regions are given different names.

If we look at objective measurements of violence, like murder rate by country [1], we can see that the Middle East is not particularly violent, rather its on par with America. It is harder to find meaningful information on militarism. We do know that the Middle East was host to 3 of the 4 world conflicts that killed more than 10,000 people in 2014 [2]. All of these conflicts have included significant foreign and local involvement. Their causes are complex. In my opinion, they are driven by a desire to control the world's most valuable resource (Oil!) not by cultural factors.

Finally, it is worth noting that Americans use the word Jihad to mean holy war, but in the Middle East the word does not have the same violent meaning [3].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflict...

[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad#Current_usage

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#269

Post by anigbrowl » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:53 PM UTC

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #256

anigbrowl wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blacks use drugs at much higher rates than whites and blacks distribute drugs at even higher rates than whites. Most studies suggest the exact opposite to be true. http://healthland.time.com/2011/11/07/study-whites-more-like... http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/09/30/w...

The studies where they simply poll or ask indicate equivalent or lower black narcotics usage. Every piece of research that uses drug testing reveals well over double the rate of white drugs usage. This is a lie that needs to die. Blacks get arrested for drugs because they have and use drugs, relative to white people. It was the same with a huge mess of headlines about blacks getting pulled over on north east highways…

I'll take you more seriously when you cite some of these studies or at least link to articles which cite them.

Re: 1.5 Million Missing Black Men

#270

Post by omonra » Mon, Apr 20, 2015, 11:53 PM UTC

haberman wrote: post #217

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the one hand you can argue there are "systemic" forces which are apparently unquantifiable driving blacks to elevated rates of criminality even after controlling for socio-economic factors. Presumably large, racially discriminatory social programs and cultural programming such as have been tried for the last 40 years are called for to remedy the problem. On the other hand you can take at face value the reams of da…

> Presumably large, racially discriminatory social programs and cultural programming such as have been tried for the last 40 years are called for to remedy the problem. There are plenty of obvious things that need fixing, even if you don't believe at all in affirmative action-like programs: 1. Clear conflicts of interest in the criminal justice system, like regular prosecutors being responsible for bringing charges a…

I'm personally not convinced why the three points you raised are affecting blacks more than anybody else.

Ie - they are all unquantifiable things with no clear bearing on blacks vs poor whites or other disadvantaged groups.

Yes we have hard figures - such as the murder rate (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/murder-rate-for...):

The homicide rate for black male victims was 31.67 per 100,000. In comparison, the overall homicide rate for male victims was 7.13 per 100,000. For white male victims, the homicide rate was 3.85 per 100,000.

So I fail to see how behavior by the criminal justice system forces black men to kill each other at a rate that's almost 10x of whites.