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Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

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Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#261

Post by orblivion »

tobylane wrote: post #250
orblivion wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually as one of the people I think you're talking about (though as someone else noted I don't know if your description of radical free-market types is perfectly accurate, it's really about net benefit) this concerns me. In principle it seems to be banning fraud, and if that's all it does then I can't really complain. But to say "you can't structure your site in such a way" I think it's rather heavy handed. I guess…

> In principle it seems to be banning fraud, and if that's all it does then I can't really complain. But to say "you can't structure your site in such a way" I think it's rather heavy handed. What if the only way to ban fraud is to say you can't structure it this way? Pyramid schemes seem like a good example. >some sort of government agency with an official review process for websites My understanding of the article…

> What if the only way to ban fraud is to say you can't structure it this way? Pyramid schemes seem like a good example.

If it's really the only way, then I can accept that tentatively (without taking an even more radical stance which I won't introduce here). But, I would still say tread very carefully and make sure it's the only way. Government regulation has a tendency to creep up and become entrenched. Even if it is the only way to prevent it, it may not be worth the increased government scope.

> My understanding of the article was that customers complain to their local council, get their money back, and the company changes after loosing too much money.

Okay, sorry I skimmed the article rather briefly. Still, if that's the format, why not keep it in the judicial system? I guess I don't have a strong point there, though.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#262

Post by jdhzzz »

krisdol wrote: post #209
TeMPOraL wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then people are "increasingly" using it incorrectly. Europe is a continent, the EU is a political alliance. Well, it's exactly the same as with America (the continent) and United States (a country). You can either argue that both calling EU Europe and USA America is wrong and we should stop, or accept that in both cases, people can figure things out from the context.

USA has always been called "America". Europe the continent has been Europe the continent far longer than the EU has existed. Both are incorrect, and thankfully "The Americas" has caught on to fix one of these wrong labels. Besides, the continent has always been called North America, not America. There is no other label of Europe the continent than "Europe", so it's a flat out wrong label of the EU at best, and at wor…

I have never understood calling Europe a continent. The division strikes me as political rather than geographic. And no, I can't be convinced otherwise.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#263

Post by thomasahle »

Someone1234 wrote: post #62
thomasahle wrote: post #50

Sorry, but this seems like a stupid law. Clearly fraud was already illegal, all that was needed were court cases clearly demonstrating these patterns. A law like this just encourages people to tweak their practices slightly and continue as before.

Your argument falls flat simply because the reality on the ground was that existing laws and enforcement wasn't taking care of the problem. These new laws give more powers to consumers to effectively take the law into their own hands. Additionally fraud (at least in the UK) doesn't impact several of the practices as they weren't misleading, just obnoxious (like adding things to your cart, or fees not on the advert bu…

> By that logic why try and do anything at all ever?

Just sue them, so that it becomes well known whether the practice is illegal.

If it's not illegal, make a law covering the general problem, and let the court specify the individual matches.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#264

Post by thomasahle »

makomk wrote: post #59
thomasahle wrote: post #50

Sorry, but this seems like a stupid law. Clearly fraud was already illegal, all that was needed were court cases clearly demonstrating these patterns. A law like this just encourages people to tweak their practices slightly and continue as before.

Fraud is still illegal. What this means is that people don't have to prove the practices in question are fraudulent, just that the companies used them.

That's exactly why it would be more scalable as a court decision. A law can never encompass every possible dark pattern, while a new court decision can be added every time somebody discover something bad, and sue.

Additionally, court decisions will be more efficient, since once a pattern is found fraudulent, it is not only banned, but there is also a whole case of discussion to refer to. With a specific law like this, with no prior cases, we aren't really much further than we already were.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#265

Post by tn13 »

weavie wrote: post #240
tn13 wrote: post #238

This is ridiculous. So now every tom dick and harry trying to sell something online need to keep in mind a new government regulation which can be bypassed in 10 different ways by those who will do it nevertheless. At this rate government will even regulate the size and position of buttons. This is something the tech community should unwelcome rather than acting like cheerleaders.

Be upfront and honest with your clients about what you are providing and what you are charging for it and you won't have anything to worry about.

No one is arguing about that. My opposition is government trying to micromanage what constitutes "upfront and honest".

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#266

Post by coriny »

voronoff wrote: post #167
coriny wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarcho-collectivists, which as far as I understand, represents the dominant modern anarchistic philosophy, examine alternative methods to central government for generating laws. So they don't argue for an unregulated society - which is obviously a non-starter under the lens of reality - or a return to pre-government, but rather a complete replacement of the law-making mechanism. Basically, they're all over complexit…

Do you have any links to writings on this (Anarcho-collectivism from a complexity perspective or vice-versa)? Did both a quick journal search and a Google search and didn't find much.

Sorry for the very late reply, I've been hoping I'd get some time to do this properly, but haven't succeeded. It's something I first read ~10 years ago, where it was mostly in the musings of a complexity theorist. Since then odd things have cropped up which have supported that narrative in my mind, but I haven't got a particularly convincing collection to work with. There's some leads in here though: http://www.anarchist-studies-network.org.uk/documents/Anarch....

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#267

Post by coriny »

jlangenauer wrote: post #231
coriny wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarcho-collectivists, which as far as I understand, represents the dominant modern anarchistic philosophy, examine alternative methods to central government for generating laws. So they don't argue for an unregulated society - which is obviously a non-starter under the lens of reality - or a return to pre-government, but rather a complete replacement of the law-making mechanism. Basically, they're all over complexit…

Yes, as someone who's interested in this, I'd love to read any links or papers about this aspect of it.

Apologies for my poor stab at answering this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8273839
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