Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#261

Post by JoeAltmaier » Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 1:38 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #260

Kiro wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you hate capitalism?

I would love to see a society with genuine capitalism. One where when banks don't have enough money they fail. Where inefficient businesses are not kept afloat by "emergency low interest rates" for the best part of a decade. When a supermarket doesn't pay a living wage, then the state doesn't give them enough to make up the difference.

That's easy, look to the past. There have been times these things didn't get done, right? The economy was unstable. People's lifetime savings were lost, millions struck into poverty, and generally massive suffering.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#262

Post by lilsunnybee » Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 7:34 PM UTC

homakov wrote: post #232

spacehome wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory you have a point, but historically speaking, individual businesses have been quite reluctant to allow shorter hours than what prevails in society. Progress on this metric almost always comes from societal movements and government intervention.

Lets set 40 hours as max and 10 hours as min. Now it is flexible enough.

In the US there is no minimum as far as how many hours an employed person can work; in the US it's called part-time labor, but this also causes huge problems with underemployment and poverty wages.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#263

Post by lilsunnybee » Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 7:43 PM UTC

iSnow wrote: post #16

sportanova wrote: post #5

I hope we start seeing more things like this, especially in the US. Does 6 hours a day maximize happiness / productivity? I don't know. Does 8 hours? It's the custom, but I don't know. I think it's almost impossible that 8 hours is the best number across every industry => vertical => company. I'd love to see more experimentation

As far as I know the 8h workday is purely the result of industrial three-shift work

Without organized labor we'd all be working at least 12-hour-days of two-shift work.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#264

Post by lilsunnybee » Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 7:53 PM UTC

claudius wrote: post #118

cabalamat wrote: post #81

A 6-hour workday would be 30 hours/week. If we're going to reduce the working week, then instead of spreading that over 5 days, why not work a 4-day week (7.5 hours/day)? That would reduce commuting congestion by 20%, and make everyone who doesn't like spending an hour a day in a traffic jam happy.

Why would you spend an hour a day in a traffic jam? Is there something wrong with your public transport system?

Most US communities, besides a few metro areas, are planned and built with regard to the automobile as the sole form of transporation. If there is any public transport system at all, it usually consists of buses which are often late, infrequent (30 minutes to an hour wait between buses for smaller communities), and travel very slowly on average (since they often make frequent stops to pick up passengers).

Why isn't public transportation better than it is a lot of places? I'd attribute it to lack of funding by local governments due to politicians who don't consider public transport to be important at all (most of them would be embarrassed to ever be seen riding in a bus rather than a mercedes or something). It is considered transportation for the lower classes (who should be embarrassed they aren't wealthy!), and thus isn't reevaluated or improved at all.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#265

Post by dnautics » Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 8:59 PM UTC

aestra wrote: post #222

dllthomas wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your thesis holds, but I don't think it's clear that your example does (though it certainly still could). Depending on just how much chance of accident goes up over time, and just how great a "productivity" hit we apply for an accident, it is absolutely the case that your productivity falls at some point and it's conceivably the case that it's before 12 (or even 8) hours - though for all I know it's at 15.

I'm sure the fatigue that sets in after (say) 15 hours would be a serious factor in accident risk. I mean truckers are required to stay under a certain work day/week and get enough sleep for safety reasons. Sure if they drove 24 hours straight they would get there faster and in theory be more productive but there are serious safety concerns both with the driver and with the truck (less time for maintenance or inspect…

agreed. My typical pattern on weekend nights is to sleep for 10 hours (yes 10 hours), do what I need to during the day for about two hours, and then get on the road, I'm usually taking anywhere from 1-2 hours of break doing other things that involve momevent (e.g. exercise, social dancing) within that 12 hours, as well, depending on availability.

During the week (when i work more protracted hours) I'm sleeping about 8 hours at least, and I'm also not beholden to an alarm, so I get as much sleep as my body needs. I think I'm probably one of the most well rested people I know, despite pulling twelve hour 'shifts' three days a week.

Obviously I'm more tired after I do the 12 hour shifts than during the week, but I haven't felt so tired that I was at risk of falling asleep on the road (which happened from time to time when I was in grad school).

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#266

Post by collyw » Thu, Jun 05, 2014, 8:54 AM UTC

showsover wrote: post #2

This stood out to me: >The Swedish town of Kiruna actually gave up its six-hour working days in 2005 after finding that the increased intensity of work was not a positive. "People have seen there that the intensity of the job increases significantly, with negative effects on health as a consequence," Could that be because we are used to fit our work in 8 hours and work accordingly? Doing 100% of your work in 75% of t…

The thing is, for myself, and I imagine any others, there are periods when I always have at least one "urgent" task, and I struggle to find the time to get that done. Then there are other times, when there isn't much to do. Averaged out it could probably all be achieved in 6 hours easily, but the changing priorities probably messes that up.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#267

Post by marvin » Thu, Jun 05, 2014, 10:25 AM UTC

collyw wrote: post #183

valdiorn wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most (all?) Scandinavian countries, time off is not a luxury. It is a right, awarded to every working man and woman, guarded by law and regulations.

Why does the rest of the world end up with such crap politics? What are you doing right in Scandinavia?

In my opinion, Scandinavia's good social policies comes from generations of dying of cold and hunger if you didn't occasionally get help from your neighbor. There is a spirit of cooperation with no expectation of being paid back, which has grown into the current system. External commentators will sometimes say that a system like this only works when you have a very homogenous society, but many of these cultures were quite isolated until the modern age, e.g. nestled in a tiny community in a valley somewhere, with only rare journeys outside. The equality principles have as far as I know only existed since the 1960s. (Note that I am speaking from a Norwegian perspective).

A lot of people forget that large parts of Norway, Sweden and Finland were dirt poor as late as the 1930s. These are very harsh climates to live in if you don't have trade and modern technology.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#268

Post by marvin » Thu, Jun 05, 2014, 10:28 AM UTC

valdiorn wrote: post #138

wobbleblob wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, the poor work both 'harder' (physically) and longer hours than the rich. It's just the way it is. Time off is a luxury. The supposedly lazy Greeks and Italians work far more hours per year than the supposedly industrious Germans and Dutch, but not as much as sweatshop workers in Bangladesh.

In most (all?) Scandinavian countries, time off is not a luxury. It is a right, awarded to every working man and woman, guarded by law and regulations.

Which is actually quite ironic - when you are freezing for eight months a year, time off is not a luxury at all - it is a life-and-death matter. You'd think that we'd have developed a much greater culture for very hard work than the Americans, but things have for some reason gone the other direction.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#269

Post by zo1 » Fri, Jun 06, 2014, 8:35 AM UTC

hueving wrote: post #208

karmajunkie wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> obviously these arrangements will affect your salary I don't really find this obvious or self-evident. One of my very biggest complaints about the economic climate today is that all of the productivity gains go to the owners, and very little to workers. If I as a worker am producing more, it follows that I should be working less, or paid more (which amounts to the same thing.) to do otherwise eliminates jobs that w…

>gains go to the owners, and very little to workers. If there is such an obvious imbalance, why doesn't everyone just quit and start their own company?

Because it's easier to blame others than blame oneself. They'd rather coast through life constantly blaming their woes on others' successes (whether just, stolen, or inherited). I take it as an opportunity to motivate myself. Nothing wrong with jealousy, as long as you use it as a motivator instead of a mental air-bag.

Re: Sweden’s proposed six-hour workday

#270

Post by zo1 » Fri, Jun 06, 2014, 8:38 AM UTC

karmajunkie wrote: post #182

iamtew wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fairly common thing here in the Netherlands actually, four day work week. Most of my colleagues I know who does this to have some extra time with their family/kids. Usually it's a split in the middle of the week or something, for example my manager doesn't work tuesday's, it's his "papadag" as he then spends time with his kids and don't have to send them off to day-care or get a nanny. Another colleague of…

> obviously these arrangements will affect your salary I don't really find this obvious or self-evident. One of my very biggest complaints about the economic climate today is that all of the productivity gains go to the owners, and very little to workers. If I as a worker am producing more, it follows that I should be working less, or paid more (which amounts to the same thing.) to do otherwise eliminates jobs that w…

"One of my very biggest complaints about the economic climate today is that all of the productivity gains go to the owners, and very little to workers." You are an owner, of yourself and the mental/physical capital that that encompasses. If you feel the way you do, then you're obviously not happy with the way you're selling yourself and your knowledge.