Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer • Hacker News Board

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#261

Post by runamok » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 2:52 AM UTC

jakejake wrote: post #248

grecy wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. Absolutely. Having employees not discuss salary is all about the employer having more power/control, and the employees having less. I've always thought it's a little like an adult giving candy to a child and then say "Now, don't tell anyone I gave you this!". Why doesn't the adult want anyone to k…

I suppose it is true that when we turn 40 our brains rot. All we care about is keeping kids off of our lawn and catching the early-bird special. Many people don't like to share their salary - not because they wouldn't "dare" as if they are cowardly or not as enlightened as you. Some people find talking about personal salary or wealth to be distasteful - like a braggart yammering on about his expensive possessions. If…

It might just be that the next generation grows up knowing about this incredible range of renumeration that exists and has less personal self esteem caught up in that number. A grocery bagger knows his doctor neighbor makes more than him. But perhaps his personal self worth is less tied into that and doesn't really care. I think such information is much more transparent than it's been historically.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#262

Post by smm2000 » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 2:53 AM UTC

pekk wrote: post #54

wmeredith wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's pretty ballsy. Seems like they're exposing themselves to unnecessary poaching risk. And what do they do in that situation? What if someone has a competing offer and they want to keep them around? Offer a bonus?

If they are paying well then they are actually discouraging poaching

The thing is that Buffer does not pay well... I will say that they pay on the lower side of acceptable.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#263

Post by nilved » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 2:55 AM UTC

dxbydt wrote: post #218

Back when I was a really dumb undergrad, I did some work for a company & they asked me where to mail the cheque. I gave them the University address. So I was chatting with my professor & we walk by the mailboxes, and by pure reflex, I reach out into my mailbox & grab my mail & he does the same & we say our goodbyes & go home. Now, I open the mail at home & am staring at my professor's salary! You see, the secretary h…

Yeah, that's a pretty shameful and classist thing you did. Glad you seem to have learnt your lesson.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#264

Post by manicbovine » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 2:59 AM UTC

tikhonj wrote: post #134

I've always felt the culture of hiding salaries was doing a significant disservice to employees. It creates a significant and largely artificial information disparity, giving a major market advantage to the employer. In turn, this makes the entire labor market less efficient for the employee. This also makes the employer less accountable to the employees. The employer can easily pay somebody significantly more or les…

It also breeds malcontent and unethical behavior. My last employer gave me a very hefty raise while (unethically) telling everyone else that there was a pay freeze.

Unfortunately, the payroll person was a gossip - the incident undermined my leadership and put me in an extremely awkward position. I'm happy to have left that shady startup.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#265

Post by krisgee » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 3:00 AM UTC

simoncion wrote: post #163

overpaidprobly wrote: post #119

Does anyone have an opinion on how these numbers square with market rates? I make $113k/year as a juniorish engineer at a VC backed startup in SV. Am I hilariously overcompensated?

It seems that market rate for a junior (0->2 years experience) web developer is ~$110k + benefits. You are not hilariously overcompensated. Ignore the various salary estimate sites. There's no way that they have an accurate view of the world.

Are you serious? I'd feel like a fucking idiot walking out of university with a brand new degree and demanding 100k off the bat. I guess the market is different outside SV though right?

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#266

Post by manicbovine » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 3:05 AM UTC

thenmar wrote: post #88

DominikR wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's say I'm a competitor, and I find that Niel (randomly picked) is someone I want to hire. All else being equal, I offer him $100k (website says he's making $88k). He comes to his boss to say "I like it here, can you match it? This happens all the time anyways, hiding the salary of the employee isn't going to make any difference in most cases. And is it so hard to guess what some (say iOS engineer) earns? The sa…

I think the fear is that it will create animosity by making the information so accessible. On some level, the junior-level dev knows he's not making as much as the guy with the PhD in an esoteric mission critical topic, but he has a kind of plausible deniability that lets him avoid thinking about it. If everyone's making 80k and everyone knows that Jane The Expert is making 300k, there's going to be friction. "Hey Ja…

They'll already know that the expert is making more. If she deserves it and the company pay structure is fair, then no good employee will complain.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#267

Post by manicbovine » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 3:06 AM UTC

JonFish85 wrote: post #29

Let's say I'm a competitor, and I find that Niel (randomly picked) is someone I want to hire. All else being equal, I offer him $100k (website says he's making $88k). He comes to his boss to say "I like it here, can you match it?" What does his boss do? Especially, if he's valuable to the company... What if I have a very specialized skill that doesn't fit nicely into your matrix? Let's say market pay for my skill is…

When you run a company, you just assume that your competitors know the pay structure. It's trivially easy information to discover (through interviews).

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#268

Post by tomasien » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 3:08 AM UTC

There are a lot of people bringing up edge cases and contingencies on this thread. The success of Buffer's culture is what happens when you stop being afraid of the edge cases and start deciding what kind of people you want to be. People will follow you if you stay true to that, as corny as that sounds.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#269

Post by syllogism » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 3:11 AM UTC

swombat wrote: post #65

bjpless wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded. Hard to imagine all employees signing off on this release for the sake of a HN article. But I hope that they did. I would be very upset if my salary were published unbeknownst to me.

You would only be upset because you currently work in a company with a culture that doesn't value transparency as a core value. If you worked in a company like Buffer or GrantTree, you'd be wondering why others are so secretive about their salaries, and find yourself more and more disliking the idea of working for a company which is not transparent. Habit is a powerful thing. Change your surroundings and you'll chang…

If you've never understood the idea of "privilege" before, your attitude of "oh what, this doesn't work for everyone else? It works for me!" is something that gets discussed a lot. Some examples of the many, many situations people can find themselves in where public salary disclosure would be a major problem:

- You have family members who have substance abuse issues. It's common for addicts to steal from family members who they rationalise can afford it.

- You're in an abusive relationship, and your spouse steals your money. Hiding part of your salary may help you feel independent enough to get out.

- Your kids' friends find out how much you earn, and bully them.

- All the rest of your family are part of a religious organisation that demands a tithe. You've lost your faith, but it would tear your family apart to leave.

- You have family who live in a country with a much, much lower standard of living. You support them financially, which is known in their community. Now their neighbours know _just how much_ you're worth, exposing your family to the possibility of kidnapping or extortion.

- Your name is Google-unique, and identifies you as part of a group that is stigmatised on the internet. If your identity leaks into your internet activities (e.g. via Google's real name policy), another major vector of harassment is exposed.

Just a couple of things off the top of my head.

Re: Introducing Open Salaries at Buffer

#270

Post by joelgascoigne » Fri, Dec 20, 2013, 3:17 AM UTC

kapilkale wrote: post #37

Seems unwise to have a CEO co-founder be the highest salaried employee at a startup. That person's equity position is probably at least an order of magnitude higher than the other employees. As an investor or employee, I'd find this alarming. http://techcrunch.com/2008/09/08/peter-thiel-best-predictor-... Call me old fashioned, but I think co-founders should be paid living expenses + 25%, even in a series-A funded st…

Joel here. This is a really interesting point, I've thought about it a lot.

From the linked article:

"In Startupland, everybody should be working towards the same goal: that big juicy exit. That’s the only payday any CEO should be worried about (even though more than half of them will never get it)."

I can't agree with that, and this is a key reason I spoke with others in the team and we decided that my salary as well as other c-level salaries should be quite high at this point. We're not planning an exit anytime soon.

Until a day ago, my salary was $118,000. In the first year, my salary was zero and in the second year it ranged from $55,000 to $75,000.

We're at a point with Buffer where there's a massive opportunity, and I'm going into my 4th year now. At $2.3M ARR and being cashflow positive (revenues cover the salaries) we're in growth mode and this isn't investor money we're using to fund these salary levels.

I completely agree that in the early years this would be a big red flag. I think the further you go, the more that notion reverses. I've heard that it can be a red flag if the CEO is not paid enough.

Would love to hear any other thoughts here, it definitely was a tough decision to make and I'm glad that by putting this out there we get all this valuable feedback.