Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Student Loan Bubble is Starting To Burst

cnbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 289 posts

Re: The Student Loan Bubble is Starting To Burst

#261

Post by ctdonath »

snicklepuff wrote: post #248
ctdonath wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistically you're correct, but objectively you can't identify which students won't do the work - ergo, you can't discriminate who to enroll (heavy on the consequences of involving the word "discriminate"). The government would come down hard on any school which says "you pass all the enrollment criteria, but we have a nagging feeling you won't complete the degree so we're not letting you in." Hence the argument th…

> but objectively you can't identify which students won't do the work - ergo, you can't discriminate who to enroll I'm calling complete bullshit on this one: isn't that the very definition of admissions? Even if you claim it's not, I think that if you look at any student's previous grades / work experience / references, you can quite reliably determine who will do the work and who will not. These schools simply don't…

You'd be very surprised at who won't do the work. I was. Interacting with them, and knowing how they were admitted, I have no doubt of their previous grades / work experience / references, and yet am time & again stunned at their utter reluctance to take basic required initiative.

By "won't do the work", I mean really simple things. A student has a week to take a simple on-line 10-question multiple-choice quiz, but doesn't even look at it. For every creative assignment, I make clear "submit something - even if it's just a text file saying 'I have no idea', I'll work with you on it", but nothing is submitted. I'll take a submitted "program" of pure gibberish, write a detailed explanation of what's wrong and how to make it work, tell them to fix it, and give them until the very end of the course to do anything & everything to make it passable, but no resubmission is attempted. Online group discussion participation is required with a weekly N-post minimum (N very small) with very low content standards, a very simple requirement, but little or no participation occurs. These are students who passed high school, hold jobs, can hold competent conversations, show up for class, etc.; I have no reason to doubt they have references, adequate prior grades, and work experience. Yet...when given a very basic collegiate task, they won't do it to a mere 60% sufficiency.

There's a fundamental difference between high school and college: the latter is not obligated to pass you. Every opportunity is given, every task may be simplified to near-triviality, but if the student won't take the steps on their own, they reap the consequences of willful inaction.

But, of course, you refuse this experiential insight and insist it's all about malicious greed.

Re: The Student Loan Bubble is Starting To Burst

#262

Post by zach »

nitrogen wrote: post #194
jobu wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always ask if the school is Regionally Accredited in the degree you intend to take: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_accreditation#Regional... If not, the credits are generally non-transferrable and many businesses will simply toss your resume.

The odd school here and there can get away without accreditation if their reputation allows it. For example, at least one of the founders of Pixar came from my former university, which has an unaccredited CS program (at least at the time I attended).

The focus in this discussion is on school accreditation. Program accreditation is a different beast of far more narrow interest. School accreditation is essential; program accreditation is a feature.

School accreditation is done by a regional accreditation organization and validates every diploma the school grants.

Program accreditation is only available for certain degrees to begin with, and is usually under the authority of a professional group in that area of study.

Practically every state university is an accredited institution, even if they offer (i.e.) accounting or engineering programs that are not accredited by a relevant organization.

Re: The Student Loan Bubble is Starting To Burst

#263

Post by ctdonath »

snicklepuff wrote: post #248
ctdonath wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistically you're correct, but objectively you can't identify which students won't do the work - ergo, you can't discriminate who to enroll (heavy on the consequences of involving the word "discriminate"). The government would come down hard on any school which says "you pass all the enrollment criteria, but we have a nagging feeling you won't complete the degree so we're not letting you in." Hence the argument th…

> but objectively you can't identify which students won't do the work - ergo, you can't discriminate who to enroll I'm calling complete bullshit on this one: isn't that the very definition of admissions? Even if you claim it's not, I think that if you look at any student's previous grades / work experience / references, you can quite reliably determine who will do the work and who will not. These schools simply don't…

This is false: schools are not required to accept federal loans.

You miss my point: it's not about rejecting federal loans, it's about rejecting an applicant who does satisfy grade/work/references/funding criteria when there are openings, but the admissions personnel concludes admission still isn't a good idea. The mortgage industry knows what I'm referring to.

Re: The Student Loan Bubble is Starting To Burst

#264

Post by jhawk28 »

johnward wrote: post #232
masmullin wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know that 'Regionally Accredited' is meaningful until you are educated? My high school guidance councillor certainly never talked about this. My college actually shouted "we're accredited" at the top of their lungs, but I didn't give a fart until I was half way through the degree, and one of my profs talked to me about why they worked so hard ensuring accreditation (for the same reasons you state) - at whi…

This is a mistake I made. My dad didn't go to college and my mom got a 2 year degree from a community college. A shitty for profit school sold me on the idea that I could get an awesome job in 2 years and then continue on to a bachelors program. Except that the credits don't transfer and you can only get the BS from the same shitty school. I also didn't see anyway I could pay for schooling without working full time a…

Look into DePaul. They have decent distance learning and are accredited. The distance learning is like a second classroom that is remote (instead of like a MOOC). They record the lecture of the day and post it in the evening. If you have any tests, you often need to find a proctor. They also have restrictions on who can be a proctor (you can't just find a teacher friend).

Re: The Student Loan Bubble is Starting To Burst

#265

Post by jlarocco »

superuser2 wrote: post #251
ctdonath wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistically you're correct, but objectively you can't identify which students won't do the work - ergo, you can't discriminate who to enroll (heavy on the consequences of involving the word "discriminate"). The government would come down hard on any school which says "you pass all the enrollment criteria, but we have a nagging feeling you won't complete the degree so we're not letting you in." Hence the argument th…

> "The government would come down hard on any school which says "you pass all the enrollment criteria, but we have a nagging feeling you won't complete the degree so we're not letting you in." No it wouldn't. Admission to selective schools isn't based on criteria, it's competitive among the other applicants in the pool for a limited number of slots. Counselors routinely state that the vast majority of their applicant…

It's not really about high end schools. Harvard, Yale, and MIT can turn down anybody they want because they have a million overly qualified candidates. They can be selective and still fill their all of classes ten times over.

But if tiny community colleges start turning people away when they have half empty classrooms, there will be a lot of negative press.

Re: The Student Loan Bubble is Starting To Burst

#266

Post by chris11 »

bradleyjg wrote: post #257
chris11 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had the impression that Harvard is very affordable for most applicants. They limit parental contribution to 10% at $150,000/yr, and require no parental contribution at less than $65,000/yr. And they do not bundle loans in there financial aid packages. http://ofr.harvard.edu/site/policies-issues/financial-aid/ So that seems to me to say that if a family is in the bottom half of average household income, Harvard i…

No families attend Harvard, just individual adults. Adults whose parents by-and-large are under no legal obligation to support them.

Right, but financial aid offices assume the parents will be supporting their children, and include that support in financial aid offers.

I just don't think we should be using Harvard as an example of the high cost of a college education when it seems to me that they are committed to making it affordable for their students.

Re: The Student Loan Bubble is Starting To Burst

#267

Post by superuser2 »

jlarocco wrote: post #265
superuser2 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The government would come down hard on any school which says "you pass all the enrollment criteria, but we have a nagging feeling you won't complete the degree so we're not letting you in." No it wouldn't. Admission to selective schools isn't based on criteria, it's competitive among the other applicants in the pool for a limited number of slots. Counselors routinely state that the vast majority of their applicant…

It's not really about high end schools. Harvard, Yale, and MIT can turn down anybody they want because they have a million overly qualified candidates. They can be selective and still fill their all of classes ten times over. But if tiny community colleges start turning people away when they have half empty classrooms, there will be a lot of negative press.

But it isn't about tiny community colleges, it's about for-profit schools, right?

They could probably figure out how to sell it as "raising the bar," talk about providing a more individualized education, ride the negative press as actually increasing the value of their degrees, etc.

Re: The Student Loan Bubble is Starting To Burst

#268

Post by BrandonMarc »

RougeFemme wrote: post #77
slg wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Playing devil's advocate, isn't it fair to remove the ability to discharge student loan debt and in term the default risk due to the fact that there is no collateral? Unlike a car loan or a mortgage, a bank can't repossess your education.

A lot of credit card debt has no collateral either, but that can be discharged in bankruptcy; why not student loans? And I suppose credit card companies could try to re-possess the goods purchased with credit cards (obviously not the services), but they don't. (And it makes sense not to; not worth it financially). FWIW, I have no student loan debt so I'm relatively neutral on this.

The original recipient / payee of the majority of college debt is a government college / university. Not always, but the vast majority. So why would the government make laws such that money owed to another government entity cannot be defaulted on?

Call it professional courtesy.

Regardless of the students' situation, that money going to get paid, come hell or high water.

Re: The Student Loan Bubble is Starting To Burst

#269

Post by BrandonMarc »

ctdonath wrote: post #234
noise wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not advocating this, but why couldn't they take your degree away? They can't take your education away, but the degree is just an agreement/contract that says you upheld your part of the bargain - passed tests, etc, and paid the university, and they in turn give you a certificate of achievement. If you default on the loan which was a substantial portion of the payment clause of that contract , why can't they revok…

The degree is just proof that you have the education. Revoking the degree does not revoke the education which is, short of extenuating circumstances, deserving of certification. When you're hired, you're hired for the education; the degree is just convenient standardized proof you have it.

True, but claiming an education != having proof of it. Sure you're employable, but it's more difficult.

Plus, if the potential employer checks your credit history and sees you defaulted on your student loan, they may make assumptions about your behavior or character, having a definite impact on their hiring decision.

Re: The Student Loan Bubble is Starting To Burst

#270

Post by BrandonMarc »

tsotha wrote: post #187
noise wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose just as an incentive to not default. If you keep the degree, in theory you are more employable. If you have to give it up to default on the debt, maybe you'd think twice?

Or you'd just tell your employer you had to give it up in a default. He's not going to care whether or not you still have your official slip of paper.

But your future employer may care about indications of your character and future behavior while under their employ. I've heard of companies running credit-history checks to discern whether a prospect is a risk of embezzlement.

I'm not saying the judgement / assumptions would be correct, but it's quite possible some employers would act this way all the same.

Therefore it's a big incentive to pay your money back.

Post reply on HN