U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#261

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 3:23 AM UTC

charonn0 wrote: post #54

Why is he being charged in the Eastern District of Virginia when the alleged crime was perpetrated in Hawaii? Shouldn't any prosecution be under the original jurisdiction of the District of Hawaii/9th Circuit? Amendment VI In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed[...]

> Why is he being charged in the Eastern District of Virginia when the alleged crime was perpetrated in Hawaii?

It wasn't. Per the complaint [1], the alleged offenses occurred in the county of "Not Applicable" in the District of "Not Applicable". Which would appear to charge offenses that did not occur within any judicial district, which, IIRC, can be charged in any US District Court.

[1] http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/edward-snowden-complai...

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#262

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 3:23 AM UTC

charonn0 wrote: post #79

jdp23 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: The complaint was filed in the Eastern District of Virginia, a jurisdiction where Snowden’s former employer, Booz Allen Hamilton, is headquartered and a district with a long track record of prosecuting cases with national security implications.

Yes, I read that part. But the Sixth amendment says nothing about where the defendant's employer is headquartered or the convenience of the prosecutors, judges, etc. To me, the choice of Virginia as the original jurisdiction is clearly unconstitutional. Also, Rule 18 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure states: Unless a statute or these rules permit otherwise, the government must prosecute an offense in a distr…

The complaint does not allege offenses occurred in Hawaii.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#263

Post by anigbrowl » Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 3:24 AM UTC

trobertson wrote: post #256

anigbrowl wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

laws are created by a notoriously corrupt set of human beings (politicians) Your argument is flawed, because you're mistaking your personal opinions for fact and then trying to build logical arguments on them. Politicians are people, they're not 'a notoriously corrupt set of human beings' distinct from the normal mass of humanity.

Even disregarding the corruption part, his point still stands. Laws are made by people. People are not infallible. People make mistakes. It is therefore obvious that there is potential for bad and unjust laws. Adding in the corruption part, you can then see that there is potential for laws and policies that are purposefully unjust.

Of course there is! My objection is that he starts from the premise that politicians are inherently evil.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#264

Post by krapp » Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 3:26 AM UTC

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #253

eli wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that he took laptops belonging to the government.

Who cares? We're talking about widespread malfeasance and lawbreaking by the gov't against every citizen, and the world, vs a few crappy laptops.

It possibly matters a great deal in regards to his defense.

I know i'll probably just be accused of being a pedant for pointing this out, but theft is still a crime, and theft of laptops containing classified material is really a crime, and at the very least (assuming the government didn't just make this charge up whole cloth), stealing laptops full of classified material and running off to China with them after spilling your guts to the Guardian might not tilt a jury in his favor.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#265

Post by rhizome » Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 3:29 AM UTC

brandall10 wrote: post #232

georgemcbay wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The charges against Ellsberg were dropped on what was basically a technicality, though.

If the public sentiment sways in such a direction, I'm sure a technicality will be found in this case as well.

The DOJ has spent the last 40 years plugging those holes.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#266

Post by rooshdi » Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 3:42 AM UTC

krapp wrote: post #264

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who cares? We're talking about widespread malfeasance and lawbreaking by the gov't against every citizen, and the world, vs a few crappy laptops.

It possibly matters a great deal in regards to his defense. I know i'll probably just be accused of being a pedant for pointing this out, but theft is still a crime, and theft of laptops containing classified material is really a crime, and at the very least (assuming the government didn't just make this charge up whole cloth), stealing laptops full of classified material and running off to China with them after spil…

True, but sometimes crimes against authority are necessary to counter crimes against humanity.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#267

Post by saurabhnanda » Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 3:53 AM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #7

So now is the time to identify the federal prosecutors who filed this and petition the government to have them fired. In addition, of course, to asking for a complete pardon for Snowden. It also should be noted that any of the Congressional investigations into this mess are perfectly capable of giving Snowden a grant of immunity from prosecution. People ask what to do. There are at least two avenues open to nip this…

There's another way to demonstrate just how unhappy you are with the trampling of your basic rigthts.

Guns.

Go out on the streets in meaningful numbers brandishing unloaded guns to show the govt how serious you are about the issue. It's a much stronger form of protest IMO.

(PS: I know I'll get downvoted for such radical comments, but moderation has stopped working with govts)

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#268

Post by krapp » Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 3:55 AM UTC

rooshdi wrote: post #266

krapp wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It possibly matters a great deal in regards to his defense. I know i'll probably just be accused of being a pedant for pointing this out, but theft is still a crime, and theft of laptops containing classified material is really a crime, and at the very least (assuming the government didn't just make this charge up whole cloth), stealing laptops full of classified material and running off to China with them after spil…

True, but sometimes crimes against authority are necessary to counter crimes against humanity.

I agree.

Nevertheless it's the kind of concrete detail I think a case can hinge on. Public opinion, too.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#269

Post by krapp » Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 4:00 AM UTC

saurabhnanda wrote: post #267

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #7

So now is the time to identify the federal prosecutors who filed this and petition the government to have them fired. In addition, of course, to asking for a complete pardon for Snowden. It also should be noted that any of the Congressional investigations into this mess are perfectly capable of giving Snowden a grant of immunity from prosecution. People ask what to do. There are at least two avenues open to nip this…

There's another way to demonstrate just how unhappy you are with the trampling of your basic rigthts. Guns. Go out on the streets in meaningful numbers brandishing unloaded guns to show the govt how serious you are about the issue. It's a much stronger form of protest IMO. (PS: I know I'll get downvoted for such radical comments, but moderation has stopped working with govts)

What would even be the point if the guns weren't loaded? You shouldn't be willing to march en masse into the streets with weapons you're not prepared to use, otherwise it's an idle threat. Signs and slogans would literally be more useful. Then at least, the news media might report on the message and not the guns.

Re: U.S. charges Edward Snowden with espionage

#270

Post by Dylan16807 » Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 4:02 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #263

trobertson wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even disregarding the corruption part, his point still stands. Laws are made by people. People are not infallible. People make mistakes. It is therefore obvious that there is potential for bad and unjust laws. Adding in the corruption part, you can then see that there is potential for laws and policies that are purposefully unjust.

Of course there is! My objection is that he starts from the premise that politicians are inherently evil.

It's a fact that politicians are more notorious for corruption than the average person. But even ignoring that, his argument does not depend on politicians being more evil than the average person. You're seeing a fatal flaw where there is only a molehill.