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Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

guardian.co.uk

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Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#261

Post by thaumasiotes »

StavrosK wrote: post #241
adventured wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's clear he meant that he is a hero to/for Americans, without anything further being implied in the positive or negative. There's absolutely nothing unique about inserting the nationality of a hero that relates to Americans. I see it done regularly by citizens of other countries. In my observation, national pride is nearly universal.

> In my observation, national pride is nearly universal. In my observation, it might be universal, but its degree varies greatly, with americans on the high end of the scale. Nobody would say "a Greek hero".

In the spirit of inquiry, if the country is Greece, how likely are the following descriptions?

"A hero of Greece"

"A national hero"

"A hero to the fatherland"

"A hero to the people"

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#262

Post by MichaelSalib »

ams6110 wrote: post #255
MarciaPetros wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shop talk is indicative of a general mindset and attitude. "Spies" are not in the business of serving due process. That is the job of lawyers and judges. You would therefore expect that kind of attitude--"if we could, we should just disappear them." Of course it's shit talk and it's not going to happen. That wasn't the point though. The point was about the attitude.

Intel officers are also not in the habit of "talking shop" in airport lounges... at least they shouldn't be. Even working in a non-classified capacity with a big consulting firm, one of the first things they warned every new employee was never talk about clients or work in public spaces.

The CIA did an extraordinary rendition in Italy a few years ago without telling the Italian government. A magistrate investigated and discovered the real names of a dozen or two CIA officers. That was easy because they gave their real names to the hotel and airlines so that they could collect points and miles. Their real names. This is the quality of CIA tradecraft.

If the CIA is filled with officers who give out their real names to every corporate chain that asks nicely, do you really think they're smart enough to keep their mouth shut in public?

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#263

Post by rdouble »

msvan wrote: post #139
[deleted] wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

I guess, about the salary, that there's a multiplying factor when your job involves high-clearance national secrets. If the threat of persecution is not enough to dissuade you from leaking, then maybe a sweet $200k job on Hawaii is.

$200K as a contractor is pretty easy. It's $100/hr. Fifteen years ago every 19 year old contract sysadmin I knew was making that much in Chicago. It's more a factor of how long you can stomach being a sysadmin for a bank, insurance company or screwed up DoD project.

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#264

Post by foobarbazqux »

jlgreco wrote: post #208
foobarbazqux wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gandhi's approach is guaranteed to work for those who turn to it because the core values are, "I don't want to live in a violent world nor inflict violence on others." If it turns out the world is immutably violent, you will probably die at the hands of somebody else, but at least you were consistent with your values - you no longer live in a violent world, and you didn't hurt anyone to get there. Of course it is all…

Right... Gandhi's approach is 'guaranteed' to work in limited circumstances. It does not work if your numbers are too few, if the opposition has a greater capacity for violence than you anticipate (this isn't about the world being violent, only the subset that oppose you need to be sufficiently violent. Relying on somebody else using violence against your murderers in the outraged aftermath of your slaughter is just…

So like we basically agree from the perspective of outsiders, but that's not really what I meant. If you have been radicalized to the extent of being willing to die for nonviolence, you still win if they kill you because you are dying for your beliefs.

As a radicalized person, there cannot even be futile resistance, because if the violent people were to kill all of their enemies, there wouldn't be any violence left to commit. If so, mission accomplished. It's very much a love thine enemy philosophy.

When I say that Gandhi's methods haven't been tested outside of India, I'm referring to people passively offering up their lives to the state. Did this really happen during the civil rights movement?

Personally I believe that this kind of self-sacrifice is not worth it, even if change is effected.

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#265

Post by Zakharov »

ams6110 wrote: post #255
MarciaPetros wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shop talk is indicative of a general mindset and attitude. "Spies" are not in the business of serving due process. That is the job of lawyers and judges. You would therefore expect that kind of attitude--"if we could, we should just disappear them." Of course it's shit talk and it's not going to happen. That wasn't the point though. The point was about the attitude.

Intel officers are also not in the habit of "talking shop" in airport lounges... at least they shouldn't be. Even working in a non-classified capacity with a big consulting firm, one of the first things they warned every new employee was never talk about clients or work in public spaces.

From their perspective they're not "talking shop", they're just discussing current affairs. Their position as intel people is incidental to the matter, as they presumably don't work in that area.

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#266

Post by Zakharov »

MichaelSalib wrote: post #262
ams6110 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel officers are also not in the habit of "talking shop" in airport lounges... at least they shouldn't be. Even working in a non-classified capacity with a big consulting firm, one of the first things they warned every new employee was never talk about clients or work in public spaces.

The CIA did an extraordinary rendition in Italy a few years ago without telling the Italian government. A magistrate investigated and discovered the real names of a dozen or two CIA officers. That was easy because they gave their real names to the hotel and airlines so that they could collect points and miles. Their real names. This is the quality of CIA tradecraft. If the CIA is filled with officers who give out the…

Eh, there could be good reason for that. Using a fake identity could arouse suspicion, even if it is advantageous once the rendition is discovered.

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#267

Post by MichaelSalib »

Zakharov wrote: post #266
MichaelSalib wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CIA did an extraordinary rendition in Italy a few years ago without telling the Italian government. A magistrate investigated and discovered the real names of a dozen or two CIA officers. That was easy because they gave their real names to the hotel and airlines so that they could collect points and miles. Their real names. This is the quality of CIA tradecraft. If the CIA is filled with officers who give out the…

Eh, there could be good reason for that. Using a fake identity could arouse suspicion, even if it is advantageous once the rendition is discovered.

These are CIA officers, engaged in a major crime. They have non-official cover identities that are supposed to be used for operations. What possible reason would justify using your real identity when committing serious crimes rather than your agency provided non-official cover identity? Do you think the CIA doesn't know how to make decent cover identities by now? That they're so bad at it that United Airlines or Hilton Hotels will be able to see through them?

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#268

Post by rdouble »

MichaelSalib wrote: post #267
Zakharov wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, there could be good reason for that. Using a fake identity could arouse suspicion, even if it is advantageous once the rendition is discovered.

These are CIA officers, engaged in a major crime. They have non-official cover identities that are supposed to be used for operations. What possible reason would justify using your real identity when committing serious crimes rather than your agency provided non-official cover identity? Do you think the CIA doesn't know how to make decent cover identities by now? That they're so bad at it that United Airlines or Hilt…

Following the lead of corporate America, the CIA has largely given up on having Americans do actual work. CIA agents are managers, and they source local people to do the dirty work. If there's one thing professional managers love more than meetings and power point, it's travel rewards points. As a fan of spy novels and movies, it's a bit sad to think about how in real life, national security could be compromised by an enemy agent offering platinum upgrades.

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#269

Post by woah »

quackerhacker wrote: post #200
themgt wrote: post #126

White House Petition to Pardon Edward Snowden: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snow...

Just as I was about to sign the petition (I've only signed 1 other one before to revoke the Westboro Baptist Church, lol)....I plan to run a "successful," startup someday soon, do you think it's safe to sign a petition (esp when I don't believe Aaron Swartz's demise was self-inflicted).

Grow some balls.

Re: Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind revelations of NSA surveillance

#270

Post by StavrosK »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #261
StavrosK wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my observation, national pride is nearly universal. In my observation, it might be universal, but its degree varies greatly, with americans on the high end of the scale. Nobody would say "a Greek hero".

In the spirit of inquiry, if the country is Greece, how likely are the following descriptions? "A hero of Greece" "A national hero" "A hero to the fatherland" "A hero to the people"

You'd say "a national hero" (the rest are not commonly used). The person can be any nationality, but he's a hero to the nation.
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