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Oculus Rift co-founder killed by gang trying to escape police

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Re: Oculus Rift co-founder killed by gang trying to escape police

#261

Post by akgerber »

entropy_ wrote: post #221
dhughes wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Canada in a small town with a fairly large (per capita) Lebanese population (Tweel, Haddad, Rashed, Jabour). We have bad drivers here but I am willing to bet we exported the behaviour to Lebanon not the other way around.

I highly doubt it. The behaviour has nothing to do with bad drivers, it's mostly because of lack of enforcement. The only thing you can get a fine for is speeding, and even then most speed traps are easy to spot. Otherwise, just do whatever the fuck you want and you won't get a fine. I'm serious, anything goes. I've seen people burn red lights right in front of police officers and get no reaction. Heck, I've seen pol…

That sounds like New York City.

Re: Oculus Rift co-founder killed by gang trying to escape police

#262

Post by foobarbazqux »

mpyne wrote: post #254
foobarbazqux wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a story about the literal intersection of police, guns, gangs, speeding, pedestrian crosswalks, motor vehicle accidents, and the sudden, traumatic, and innocent bystander death of the co-founder of a visible startup. And you guys expect no discussion of politics? Can you point to a single story since the inception of Hacker News that quite obviously involved the intersection of hacker/startup culture with the…

> I'll be the first to agree that political extremism is aggravating, but the solution to political extremism is not the avoidance of politics altogether. On the contrary, avoidance of all politics is a wonderful individual solution to political extremism. Which is why so many "normal" people refuse to get involved at all, which is why all of us "normal" people end up so surprised every 2 years over a bunch of reacti…

So basically I feel the same way, having had several HN accounts over the years, and feeling totally disenfranchised as a voter, except that I think if more normal people said more normal, boring, nuanced, middle of the road type things about politics then the people having fights with each other wouldn't be so annoying, because they are a tiny fraction of the population. I understand this is a bit of a pipe dream, and it's frustrating when that tiny fraction dominates the conversation. It's just difficult to want to participate at all when people prioritize winning an argument over understanding the issues at hand.

Re: Oculus Rift co-founder killed by gang trying to escape police

#263

Post by mhartl »

People are missing the main point here. This was a terrible, but not a senseless, tragedy, and there is an important lesson to learn.

It's not "be more careful when crossing the street". Being a super-defensive pedestrian might have saved Andrew Reisse, but that's not the main point. It's not "don't have high speed chases". Perhaps different police policies might have averted this tragedy, but that's not the main point, either.

The main point is that roving paramilitary gangs rule large swathes of Santa Ana, California, and virtually every other big city in America. These gangs have not been broken because the police lack the mandate to break them. (My father consulted for the Santa Ana police department for nearly 30 years; they feel powerless against the gangs.) The gangs probably wouldn't last a week against a vigorous application of military-grade force, but such an application of force is politically untenable at present. This means that the current political system itself is complicit.

Don't blame the pedestrian or the police. Blame the gangs and the system that protects them.

Re: Oculus Rift co-founder killed by gang trying to escape police

#264

Post by jader201 »

SolarNet wrote: post #253
jader201 wrote: post #168

I've not been following the Oculus Rift very much, other than waiting for its release and keeping an eye on which games might support it once it's released. So I don't really know much of the history or the company. Can someone share how Reisse was involved w/ the Oculus Rift? Looking at the company's profile[1], it makes no mention of Reisse, and lists Luckey as the "Founder". Even searching their site[2] makes no m…

Many early employees are truly better called founders, just ones that didn't officially work at the company until after it's founding. He could have been moonlighting for them, he may have helped come up with the original idea, or work with the company to solve some of the core design challenges. Just because his title wasn't co-founder doesn't mean he wasn't as important as any other founder or early employee.

I agree, and I wasn't trying to diminish his role. I was just trying to understand where the "co-founder" in the title came from. How did the submitter know he was truly a co-founder?

I couldn't find mention of this anywhere, so I was assuming the submitter knew some history of him that I couldn't find on their site.

Re: Oculus Rift co-founder killed by gang trying to escape police

#265

Post by bilbo0s »

mhartl wrote: post #263

People are missing the main point here. This was a terrible, but not a senseless, tragedy, and there is an important lesson to learn. It's not "be more careful when crossing the street". Being a super-defensive pedestrian might have saved Andrew Reisse, but that's not the main point. It's not "don't have high speed chases". Perhaps different police policies might have averted this tragedy, but that's not the main poi…

"...The gangs probably wouldn't last a week against a vigorous application of military-grade force..."

No... they would last much longer than a week. I'm going to recommend some reading to you:

http://www.amazon.com/Marine-Corps-Counterinsurgency-Field-M...

You don't go into neighborhoods, kicking in doors with guns blazing. They recently did that in Detroit to serve a warrant. Post Mortem: 1 dead 6 year old girl, 1 injured 72 year old grandmother, 0 arrests.

Think of it this way...

For every enemy, or (gang member), you kill, you create one. For every innocent you kill in pursuit of a gang member, you create 10 enemies. (Keep in mind, the people in the neighborhood KNOW who is innocent, even if you don't.)

These are hard problems. They defy simple solutions. In fact, the application of simple solutions to this PARTICULAR class of problems only creates more problems.

Re: Oculus Rift co-founder killed by gang trying to escape police

#266

Post by mhartl »

bilbo0s wrote: post #265
mhartl wrote: post #263

People are missing the main point here. This was a terrible, but not a senseless, tragedy, and there is an important lesson to learn. It's not "be more careful when crossing the street". Being a super-defensive pedestrian might have saved Andrew Reisse, but that's not the main point. It's not "don't have high speed chases". Perhaps different police policies might have averted this tragedy, but that's not the main poi…

"...The gangs probably wouldn't last a week against a vigorous application of military-grade force..." No... they would last much longer than a week. I'm going to recommend some reading to you: http://www.amazon.com/Marine-Corps-Counterinsurgency-Field-M... You don't go into neighborhoods, kicking in doors with guns blazing. They recently did that in Detroit to serve a warrant. Post Mortem: 1 dead 6 year old girl, 1…

Thanks for the link to a counterinsurgency manual; here is my favorite work in the genre:

http://www.civilwarhome.com/liebercode.htm

It describes the code (developed by Prussian jurist Francis Lieber) used by the victorious Union to suppress armed opposition ("insurgency") in the defeated Confederacy after the end of the American Civil War. If you compare its prescriptions to those in the "modern" counterinsurgency manual you linked to, you will see why the Union succeeded where present efforts fail.

You don't go into neighborhoods, kicking in doors with guns blazing. They recently did that in Detroit to serve a warrant.

No, you start by declaring martial law and enforcing a curfew. Santa Ana's gangs are a military problem, and they demand a military solution. If you're serving warrants, you've already lost the battle.

I understand that this is off the political map. That's the point. The kinds of policies needed to successfully defeat these gangs are anathema to prevailing civil libertarian views. But civilized 4th Amendment–style liberties only work when basic conditions of law & order hold; they don't work in a war. Indeed, when applied in a war, they only make things worse. This is why the present system, which serves warrants to soldiers in the opposing army, is complicit in their crimes.

Re: Oculus Rift co-founder killed by gang trying to escape police

#267

Post by Kequc »

katbyte wrote: post #252
Kequc wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no such thing as a slippery slope. If you leave your windows open and aren't there then people can easily steal from you and then cost the public money. Nobody was penalised, simply contacted and asked to close the window on their car.

However if they had not been able to contact someone: > police is forced to tow the car in that case, if they cannot reach someone

If they cannot contact you then you have been breaking the law. Why?

Re: Oculus Rift co-founder killed by gang trying to escape police

#268

Post by dhughes »

entropy_ wrote: post #221
dhughes wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Canada in a small town with a fairly large (per capita) Lebanese population (Tweel, Haddad, Rashed, Jabour). We have bad drivers here but I am willing to bet we exported the behaviour to Lebanon not the other way around.

I highly doubt it. The behaviour has nothing to do with bad drivers, it's mostly because of lack of enforcement. The only thing you can get a fine for is speeding, and even then most speed traps are easy to spot. Otherwise, just do whatever the fuck you want and you won't get a fine. I'm serious, anything goes. I've seen people burn red lights right in front of police officers and get no reaction. Heck, I've seen pol…

You just described my town.

A lot of ex-hockey goons are police, three cars go through the red light, people don't signal turns not even police, lines on the road are ignored, people park anywhere, tailgaters everywhere, cars without license plates, road crews make the roads stupid because they can't drive so how would they know a road is wrong and on and on.

I feel your pain.

Re: Oculus Rift co-founder killed by gang trying to escape police

#269

Post by bilbo0s »

mhartl wrote: post #266
bilbo0s wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...The gangs probably wouldn't last a week against a vigorous application of military-grade force..." No... they would last much longer than a week. I'm going to recommend some reading to you: http://www.amazon.com/Marine-Corps-Counterinsurgency-Field-M... You don't go into neighborhoods, kicking in doors with guns blazing. They recently did that in Detroit to serve a warrant. Post Mortem: 1 dead 6 year old girl, 1…

Thanks for the link to a counterinsurgency manual; here is my favorite work in the genre: http://www.civilwarhome.com/liebercode.htm It describes the code (developed by Prussian jurist Francis Lieber) used by the victorious Union to suppress armed opposition ("insurgency") in the defeated Confederacy after the end of the American Civil War. If you compare its prescriptions to those in the "modern" counterinsurgency m…

It's not off the map.

It just won't work.

For instance... let's say you have a curfew... well gang members already ARE indoors by curfew! Minding their drug dens, which get maximum business during evening, (curfew), hours. In fact, drug gangs would LOVE martial law... because it would rid them of their chief competition... the low level, open air, street drug dealer. Currently, the only way they can get rid of those guys is through targeted violence. Which brings them trouble. Your recommendations would actually CEMENT the gang's hold on a given drug market.

You approach what you see as a war... but everyone else sees as a business. The police are having a lot of success right now disrupting business. The core of the strategy in NY was not "quality of life", as so many people parrot. Rather it was "disrupt business" wherever you see it. Even the "Squeegee-men" were targeted. And the results have been fantastic.

Now, are innocent people still getting hurt? Of course. But collateral damage is nowhere NEAR the level it was during the crack wars of the 80's and 90's. At the same time, violence is WAY down relative the crack wars. That's because we have gotten MUCH smarter. Well... most of us. Violence is down in places like NY, LA and even Chicago relative the crack wars. But places like Detroit persist with old tactics and have not made as much headway. Many of the "squeegee-men" equivalents still operate with impunity in Detroit. Which tells you that Detroit is not serious about cleaning up it's city. They only care to crack down on gangs with military zeal. Which is why they have the problems they do.

Re: Oculus Rift co-founder killed by gang trying to escape police

#270

Post by snogglethorpe »

malandrew wrote: post #230
InclinedPlane wrote: post #140

This is a good reminder to always be a defensive and aware pedestrian. Just because you have the light or the right-of-way doesn't mean you are guaranteed a safe crossing of the street. Whenever I cross an intersection as a pedestrian I always look both ways (even on one way streets) and I always keep an eye on cars that are still in motion, especially those that don't appear to be slowing down. It's good to make the…

As someone who's been hit by a car twice (neither were my fault), it's also a good reminder that cars simply don't belong in urban areas with a sufficiently dense population. I still don't get why most American cities still don't reach a tipping point then go whole hog in making certain parts of cities pedestrian and bike only.

Cars are still often used as a sign of conspicuous consumption, especially among older people who came of age back in the "car era" (the '50s/'60s, when there was an overwhelming sense of the automobile as the "glorious future" of transportation, and before the many problems of mass car usage were clear)—and older people tend to be richer/more influential.

So you get a disproportionate amount of car use by rich/influential people (including many politicians), and they have far more effect on public policy than the average person. Even if the right thing overall is to restrict automobile usage, any politician has to be very careful how he introduces such policies lest he quickly feel the wrath of the well-connected...

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