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Wi-Fi 8 is the first wireless upgrade in years that isn't chasing speed

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Re: Wi-Fi 8 is the first wireless upgrade in years that isn't chasing speed

#261

Post by moffkalast »

BenjiWiebe wrote: post #171
moffkalast wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dead outside the US unfortunately, worse range than regular wifi due to being strangled by lower channel width and ridicolously low power limits. The two bulky HaLowLink routers are the only off the shelf thing with support for it, it's nonexistent as a wifi standard. I was so excited when I discovered it a few months back after struggling for years to set up reliable wifi for outdoor robotics, only to realize we can…

Lower channel width improves range, at the cost of bandwidth.

No I mean the total frequency range is much smaller. The US has 26 MHz width, while EU/Africa/India only allocated 7 MHz total. The difference in absolute frequency is minimal at ~30 MHz, you almost get more difference from using different channels in the US. What affects range even more is that in the US you can transmit at 1000 mW vs. 25 mW, so the end result is about ~5-10 km vs. 100-200 m. At that range 2.4 GHz is king and stomps it at over four times the allowed power to transfer ridiculously higher amounts of data.

Re: Wi-Fi 8 is the first wireless upgrade in years that isn't chasing speed

#262

Post by justsomehnguy »

eigen wrote: post #244
Dylan16807 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A non-linear cost for a small fraction of the phone. A slightly larger PCB with two more layers is about twice the price for the PCB, more antennas is a couple dollars, a one lane PCIe switch is a few dollars if that's cheaper than upgrading your SOC. And if it shrinks your battery 10% you save money on that part. I blame niche-ness far more than the actual design and production costs. Edit: fixed the pcb wording

> PCIe switch is a few dollars if that's cheaper than upgrading your SOC perhaps you're more familiar with these options than I am, but I see 4 lane PCIe switches are 10x10 mm and maybe they are a few dollars but take more board space, new/larger power supplies, etc so it seems that the costs are more than just a few dollar PCIe switch chip. not sure how many phone PCBs can handle additional 100 mm2 but definitely lo…

> not sure how many phone PCBs can handle additional 100 mm2

You are clearly out of your league. Get some 20 y/o flip Motorola, disassemble it and think, think hard.

No, 'PCIe switches' has nothing to do with the smartphones at all - so their PCB real estate do not indicate anything.

Re: Wi-Fi 8 is the first wireless upgrade in years that isn't chasing speed

#263

Post by crote »

BlackRabbit1 wrote: post #78
mrjay42 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phew, I looked it up, just by curiosity. What a nightmare :') the rules, regulations, laws are damn strict Oo

Usually this rules are for experts who have to implement the limits. They should not be exposed to end-users.

The problem is that the application of the rules is inherently usage-specific.

For example, with the 1% duty cycle limit it is totally fine to have a transmission take 30 seconds - provided you only send 1 transmission an hour. Want to send one transmission per minute? You'll have to get your transmission time down to 0.6 seconds. And your transmission speed is inherently linked to your data rate, and by extension your signal range.

There's no one-size-fits-all solution possible here. Either the user has to give it some information about their specific use case, or it'll have to stick to the absolute most pessimistic limits.

Re: Wi-Fi 8 is the first wireless upgrade in years that isn't chasing speed

#264

Post by utrack »

martinald wrote: post #153
bjackman wrote: post #41

I recently upgraded from a WiFi 5 router to a WiFi 7 one, and my bandwidth increase was a grand 0% (that's ok though I was actually just sick of my old router's shitty UI!) There is about 10m and a brick wall between my AP and my desk so yeah, a fancy new MCS that can theoretically deliver 25Gbps was just never gonna be useful to me. Also I've worked on (other non-WiFi) 802.11 products where our competitive edge was…

What kind of WiFi 7? (There are a lot that don't have 6GHz support). You should get far better performance on 6GHz, though there are harsh power limits in most countries with various ways to enable it which may complicate things. But if you can get full power on 6GHz it should reach 10m no issues at all, and with 320MHz should be at least twice as fast. If you can also get MLO working (which is not simple) you'd be a…

Every once in a while I visit this page to see if there is any router that does support true MLO: https://www.rtings.com/router/learn/research/wifi-7-mlo#the-...

Re: Wi-Fi 8 is the first wireless upgrade in years that isn't chasing speed

#265

Post by mytailorisrich »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #243
mytailorisrich wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Warehouses, factories, etc need private 5G, not Wi-Fi.

Wi-Fi should be able to do it. Dense 5G uses similar bands after all and they'll go through a couple walls.

The issue is that Wifi offers no reliability guarantees and does not scale when number of nodes grows beyond a relatively low number. So when number of nodes is large and you want to perform critical tasks (e.g. control robots, machinery, etc remotely) Wifi does not work.

Re: Wi-Fi 8 is the first wireless upgrade in years that isn't chasing speed

#266

Post by agumonkey »

toast0 wrote: post #215
agumonkey wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

anybody tried fiber network / hubs at home ?

It works, but kind of inconvenient for things that aren't desktops... or you need a switch with sfp to act as a media converter everywhere you have devices. And I have cat5 in my walls that was installed 25 years ago (way before it was my house)... That gets me to 10g everywhere I tried, so no reason to pull anything else.

fair point

Re: Wi-Fi 8 is the first wireless upgrade in years that isn't chasing speed

#267

Post by GJim »

Neikius wrote: post #112
moffkalast wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dead outside the US unfortunately, worse range than regular wifi due to being strangled by lower channel width and ridicolously low power limits. The two bulky HaLowLink routers are the only off the shelf thing with support for it, it's nonexistent as a wifi standard. I was so excited when I discovered it a few months back after struggling for years to set up reliable wifi for outdoor robotics, only to realize we can…

LoRa is not fast enough?

LoRa has rather iffy security. I certainly would not use it for anything serious.

Re: Wi-Fi 8 is the first wireless upgrade in years that isn't chasing speed

#268

Post by zipy124 »

utrack wrote: post #264
martinald wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of WiFi 7? (There are a lot that don't have 6GHz support). You should get far better performance on 6GHz, though there are harsh power limits in most countries with various ways to enable it which may complicate things. But if you can get full power on 6GHz it should reach 10m no issues at all, and with 320MHz should be at least twice as fast. If you can also get MLO working (which is not simple) you'd be a…

Every once in a while I visit this page to see if there is any router that does support true MLO: https://www.rtings.com/router/learn/research/wifi-7-mlo#the-...

I feel like this is the same problem USB and bluetooth have, where there are so many optional extras, that it's so hard to truly compare devices since a standard is actually like 100 standards packaged together.

Re: Wi-Fi 8 is the first wireless upgrade in years that isn't chasing speed

#269

Post by numpad0 »

BatteryMountain wrote: post #150
avhception wrote: post #23

We need reliable, real-world ~20mbit/s for our warehouse scanners, not 382722 theoretical Gbit/s 5cm from the access point. And roaming that works instead of stupid clients clinging to somewhere or being thrown into a reconnect loop when the AP tries to get them to roam. I know this is theoretically possible today. But in the real world, I have inherited the setup, so AP locations are fixed for now, clients are some…

Here's another one for you: today I found out that my dual-sim android phone has a single radio that is shared between the two sims. So when you are on a call, the 4G/5G doesn't work on the other sim, likewise, sometimes the the voice sim is unavailable while the other sim engaged with 4G/5G things... which is just stupid. Can't they just add two radios/chips (like many wifi AP's....)? So the whole setup on a consume…

Common dual SIM configuration eTLA(extended three-letter abbreviations) are:

  - DSDA: Dual SIM Dual Active, theoretically can call and do everything on both SIMs simultaneously  
  - DSDV: Dual SIM Dual VoLTE, can standby on both at all time but can't "use" at the same time     
  - DSDS: Dual SIM Dual Standby, can standby on both on so long radios don't conflict(3G+4G|4G+5G)
  - DSSS: Dual SIM Single Standby, can physically mount two SIMs to just electronically switch between

Re: Wi-Fi 8 is the first wireless upgrade in years that isn't chasing speed

#270

Post by numpad0 »

tecleandor wrote: post #169
BatteryMountain wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's another one for you: today I found out that my dual-sim android phone has a single radio that is shared between the two sims. So when you are on a call, the 4G/5G doesn't work on the other sim, likewise, sometimes the the voice sim is unavailable while the other sim engaged with 4G/5G things... which is just stupid. Can't they just add two radios/chips (like many wifi AP's....)? So the whole setup on a consume…

An additional radio would raise the price of your phone for at least another 200 or 300 dollars. Try to enable VoLTE if available for your operator. That makes the phone use the LTE connection for voice and don't drop the Internet connection while you talk.

It won't, but the pre-made platform solution you pick and the prompt you send to Chinese ODM who do all the hard work must specify it has to be (DSDA|DSDV|DSDS|DSSS), or otherwise it'll default to DSDS.
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