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I love LLMs, I hate hype

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Re: I love LLMs, I hate hype

#261
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was ms even making that much money compared to actual hardware manufacturers? Ms is licensing the os sure but I mean most of the spend was going to the actual workstation hardware and periphery I’d expect. Including stuff not directly tech like herman miller chairs.

Yes! Microsoft made buckets and buckets of money on products with a unit cost that approaches zero. Hardware was vastly less profitable and there's a graveyard full of PC and server makers that didn't survive. Even the most profitable PC makers (Dell and Compaq during the rise of Microsoft) didn't make anything like Microsoft money. I don't know how to apply those lessons to AI, as long as AI requires so much hardwar…

How capable do they need to be? You can run distillations on a Pixel 10 Pro today, it's just not packaged up neatly yet.

Re: I love LLMs, I hate hype

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I meant per month, not per day.

40k per engineer per month? ~1.3k per day?

AFAIK it varies per person but it's around $20-$40k per person per month. Just lots of Opus working on multiple features in parallel all the time, even overnight.

Re: I love LLMs, I hate hype

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make sense, I enjoy making bread at home but it costs 10x and tastes like dog shit I dont want to spend my time perfecting the craft of making bread for my daily needs (maybe once in a while its a soothing activity), I want someone smarter than me to spend his entire life coming up and perfecting a solution and exerting more time and effort than I can afford and I am very happy to support him so I can st…

> This doesn't make sense Makes perfect sense to anyone good at using these models. What doesn't make sense is that analogy. Typing prompts isn't even close to as difficult to baking bread.

> Typing prompts isn't even close to as difficult to baking bread

Depending on how good you are at this task. If typing prompts was that easy, there won't be so many tutorials, blog posts, and framework (Act as ... etc)

But there is a difference though. You can ask LLM for "how to write a prompt for ... to prompt you". You can't do that with bread.

Re: I love LLMs, I hate hype

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it makes financial sense at current subscription prices, but this might not hold true when they have to raise prices eventually

Why will they have to raise prices eventually?

when they IPO, their financials will be under scrutiny, and exponential revenue growth would be required to justify their trillion dollar valuation

Re: I love LLMs, I hate hype

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes! Microsoft made buckets and buckets of money on products with a unit cost that approaches zero. Hardware was vastly less profitable and there's a graveyard full of PC and server makers that didn't survive. Even the most profitable PC makers (Dell and Compaq during the rise of Microsoft) didn't make anything like Microsoft money. I don't know how to apply those lessons to AI, as long as AI requires so much hardwar…

How capable do they need to be? You can run distillations on a Pixel 10 Pro today, it's just not packaged up neatly yet.

I'm super enthusiastic about small models, but let's be realistic. A distillation is not the whole model (and, in fact, a lot of the small distillations on HuggingFace are worse than the base model...most of the Qwen 3.6 Opus/Fable/whatever distillations get weirder on some dimensions than Qwen 3.6 alone, as I understand it).

There are little models that are very good for their size. I say nice things about Gemma 4 damned near every day. But, I'm not writing code with it. I am using it for finding security bugs, though, as the 31b variant is outrageously good at it for its size: https://swelljoe.com/post/gemma-4-exceeds-expectations/ and I'm also using it as a base for my own training experiments, specifically the 12b which is small enough to train a LoRA for on my local hardware so I don't have to rent cloud GPUs. The 12b QAT can run on your Pixel 10 Pro today and is frightfully smart for its size, and has great vision capabilities.

But, I keep saying "for its size". You have to be realistic about what tasks these self-hosted models can do. They are getting better though. Gemma 4 31b is competitive with models 10 times its size from a year ago. That's remarkable, and indicates where things are going.

Re: I love LLMs, I hate hype

#266

> where’s all this new magical software that the productivity improvements should imply? It's running, privately, in my homelab. I think we are entering what I call the "have it your way" era. If an open source project doesn't do exactly what you want it to do, fork it, or create a new version. It's too easy. This makes me a bit concerned about the future of open source. Upstreaming used to be worth it, since maintai…

It's no one making consumer facing software with AI?

Re: I love LLMs, I hate hype

#267
> all the vibe coded stuff is still slop (where’s all this new magical software that the productivity improvements should imply?)

Part-time vibe coder here. As far as I can tell it's no longer "slop" in the sense that I am no longer hitting the state where AI can't maintain what it has written or can't meet the requirements. But shipping is as hard as ever. Projects get more ambitious, scope creeps, nuances keep being discovered as you work on a piece of software, etc. Right now I feel that the absence of new software explosion is best explained by the fact that the part we have automated turned out to be relatively small.

Re: I love LLMs, I hate hype

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what are you working on? I only hit the guardrails twice after burning through two weeks of 20x max plan, both times on ML stuff; still more than I'd want to, but not unusable

A lot of stuff that has to do with VLLM and troubleshooting and compiling and building VLLM, compiling kernel, or just dealing with setting up eval for local models, it punts to Opus 4.8 on a regular basis. To the point that I have given up on using it for that purpose.

Hey, at least you’re not being silently nerfed or sabotaged by Fable’s PEFTs or steering vectors instead. Those classifiers are only meant to target DeepSeek et al, not routine LLM or ML work /s.

Re: I love LLMs, I hate hype

#269
post #87

This line: "this is my main argument against the valuation of frontier labs. It’s not that AI won’t create that much value, it’s that they won’t capture it." That is a very astute and concise way to explain everything about how the frontier labs are behaving and how they're trying to push more people to pay token rates for the best models. At the current subscription prices ($100 or $200 a month for a generous, thoug…

Who is going to end up capturing all this value being generated is going to be very interesting. Back in 1980, who’d have thought MS would capture the majority of the value from PCs over the next 3 decades, and not IBM?

It is honestly hard to predict. We are currently in everyone is building website/mobile app/gadget era of AI. Very few places are questioning what is worth building.

Short term, we can compare this to 2-3 recent (mini) revolutions: internet, mobile, cloud. Then the answer is somewhat predictable and (somewhat sad personally). Companies owning the main distribution of intelligence (big labs) or distribution of the app/cloud layer (Google, MSFT, AWS) will make most of the money. In fact Google looks well positioned that way with owning intelligence, cloud (and even hardware, if they can get TPUs right as commercial product).

Long term view is interesting and somewhat satisfying (again, personally). We can compare this to industrial revolution, but for intelligence instead of physical labour. I hope, to borrow from Alan Kay's words, the total value generated will be more than what few big labs can capture. Though we will also see normal market dynamics of boom and bust in play. Companies building something useful, patiently will keep winning the markets. But only to get challenged by newer modes of the technology emerging.

In this long term view, the technology per se doesn't offer monopolistic profits to big labs. I think Anthropic is well aware of this and they are trying to extract as much cash from white collar work automation as they can before things are democratised. Contrary to popular opinion, they are also trying to seek a regulatory capture here by to maintain monopolistic position in the US market by scare mongering about China and open source. Its a case study how they managed to keep the good boy image of themselves while doing this.

In the end, I hope the technology emerges as electricity or combustion engine cars. Yes early pioneers (e.g. Ford) were perhaps able to make lot of money. But eventually, the technology was too important to allow one party to have monopoly and we had an abundance market which enabled jobs and money for a lot more people.

Edit, postscript : Dario, Sam and even Jensen will end up looking like the new the John D. Rockefeller's of this era. I'm personally hoping Demis Hassabis actually solves something much more important (problems in diseases, biology etc) with AI.

Re: I love LLMs, I hate hype

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Best comparison is Anthropic/OpenAI are AOL/Prodigy. Massive market capture, no moat. Little by little, the convenience and weight will be scraped off, but they (probably) won't roll over and die for quite a while. By the same measure, NVDA is Cisco, providing the backbone and capturing a ton of the early benefits, but soon becomes furniture while the excitement moves further up the chain.

I think a contemporary comparison is OpenAI's DALL-E. Predating but foreshadowing LLMs they went closed source and tried to monetize it, but within a few years the entire concept just fell apart. Now you can download free open source software, that works better than DALL-E and runs fine on a plain old video card, and for orders of magnitude lower cost. I think we can start to see the outlines of this happening with L…

> Now you can download free open source software, that works better than DALL-E and runs fine on a plain old video card, and for orders of magnitude lower cost.

Ok, I completely missed that one. Can you point me in the right direction?

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