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The war on terror primed America for autocracy

economist.com

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Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#261

Post by ted_bunny »

mullingitover wrote: post #144
derektank wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bin Laden’s ultimate objective was to evict US military forces from the Middle East. In response to 9/11, we massively expanded our footprint in the region and formed even deeper relationships with the Saudi government (whom Bin Laden hated for in his view, “[suspending] Islamic laws, and replacing it with statuary laws”). You can read it all in his original, late 90s declaration of jihad against the United States[1]…

> Bin Laden’s ultimate objective was to evict US military forces from the Middle East Bush’s famous “Mission Accomplished” photo op was, ironically, on the same day US troops complied with bin Laden’s demand for them to leave Saudi Arabian soil.

Ironic? Or timed specifically to overshadow it in the news?

Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#262

Post by euroderf »

nullhole wrote: post #15
marssaxman wrote: post #5

This seemed obvious to me at the time. It was hard to understand why people in the cultural mainstream let themselves get swept up in it. I felt like I lost my country, back then, as they pretty much all went off into crazyland together.

The OK-ing of torture was a clear step into the totalitarian camp and a clear breach with justice, liberalism, and decency.

History should record that for a brief moment of time, the US government tortured at least one person to death.

Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#263

Post by 40four »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #204
pembrook wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will call this Exhibit A in proving my point about polarization, thank you left-leaning person lacking in self-awareness. Now we just need a right-leaning person who lacks self awareness to offer a rebuttal to you and we can complete the picture.

Are Americans really more polarized? I guess it depends on when you choose your baseline. It's certainly true that the political parties are more polarized, didn't used to be as ideological as they are now. To a large extent, the southern Democrats all left to join the Republican party, and the "compassionate conservatives" have mostly abandoned the Republican party. I expect with the split between MAGA and the Ameri…

It’s an interesting question if we are more polarized now than at some point in the past. Hard to say, I wonder if there is some way to measure this? Maybe you could compare the amount of “undecided” voters over time.

You always here people say one half of the country is red and the other half is blue, but in reality is probably more like 1/3 each red/blue and another 3rd who don’t subscribe to the dogma of either side and are fed up with the endless bickering between the two teams.

One thing that’s for certain is the tech giants tech giants and news companies are attempting to manipulate us more than ever. It might feel like we’re more polarized that ever, but I think much of that is because it’s good for business, and they are shoving division in our faces on a daily basis.

There is real evidence of this by an awesome project called “Tech Watch Project” (https://techwatchproject.org/). They have a data dashboard with real time charts at https://americasdigitalshield.com/.

The idea is that tech giants are purposely trying to manipulate voters in the middle by feeding them more biased search results, notifications, et cetera. The thing about this, is that on close election they can literally swing elections the way they want them to go by manipulating undecided voters algorithms.

In elections with wider margins it’s not going to have an effect, but in close races it only takes a point or two to get the desired result. This is a power they should not have and it needs to be talked about more.

Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#264

Post by 40four »

watwut wrote: post #187
pembrook wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come on. You’re trying to be edgy without any understanding of reality. It’s like saying History will record Gavrilo Princip as having won WW1. Huh? America’s current troubles are political polarization and ballooning deficits. Both of which are happening in every developed country, having nothing to do with 9/11. The foreign interventionism is a 100 year tradition in the US, nothing new under the sun. The only th…

> America’s current troubles are political polarization and ballooning deficits. American problem is one sided right wing radicalization, not polarization. If left of center moved the the right even more, the issues would remain.

If you think radicalization is only a problem on the side of Team Red and not so for Team Blue, I would urge you to reevaluate your opinion.

Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#265

Post by red-iron-pine »

graemep wrote: post #159
rhubarbtree wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, a lot of people saw this coming. It was so obvious - new powers are always abused in the end. Same for the UK. Perhaps the politicians knew that and didn’t care. Not sure how deep their cynicism / malice goes. More power to us, they said.

In the UK there is a big element of sheer incompetence. Politicians who have not experience of life outside politics are really will-equipped to understand the consequences of what they do, and defer overly to expert opinion. Of course the police or intelligence services say they need more powers, it takes judgement to balance this against other considerations.

they are absolutely capable -- BoJo knew exactly wtf he was doing most of the time -- they just don't give a shit.

Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#266

Post by red-iron-pine »

shakna wrote: post #52
andsoitis wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> bin Laden won are his people better off or are they worse off?

Most of the funding for the campaign came via Saudi Arabian citizens [0], and they have absolutely benefited from the change in political power in the Middle East. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20060311045338/http://news.bbc.c...

> Saudi Arabian citizens

"Saudi Arabian citizens" == literally the House of Saud, and their direct associates.

Bin Ladin came from a wealthy family of construction magnates with ties to the royals. It's like if Barron Trump decided to move to rural Ontario and start a Christian Identity movement.

Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#267

Post by red-iron-pine »

40four wrote: post #264
watwut wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> America’s current troubles are political polarization and ballooning deficits. American problem is one sided right wing radicalization, not polarization. If left of center moved the the right even more, the issues would remain.

If you think radicalization is only a problem on the side of Team Red and not so for Team Blue, I would urge you to reevaluate your opinion.

whatabout the other side!?!?!?!1

Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#268

Post by akramachamarei »

pstuart wrote: post #90
SubiculumCode wrote: post #77

The elevation of the Executive branch the last and this century has led to this primordial autocracy. Say no to the royal perogative, and accept the more limited powers of Execution of Law. https://jach.law.wisc.edu/exec-power-royal-prerogative-found...

It would help if Congress wasn't sabotaged to enable this; and to have a major political party that effectively wants a king. We were rightfully warned on the dangers of political parties and it's well demonstrated that that warning was correct in its assessment. The fact that millions of Americans declare themselves to be loyal to their party first and foremost is terrifying. Evil people have weaponized the tribal s…

Well, more Americans are declaring themselves politically independent, so we may be moving in a better direction, at least nominally:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/700499/new-high-identify-politi...

Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#269

Post by [deleted] »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #221
bobjordan wrote: post #34

I subscribed to the economist from ~2008 for 10+ years before I cancelled. I'm mostly a centrist but admit to leaning libertarian these days, I think both sides do not represent "democracy" anymore, I do not trust the Democrats any more than Republicans in this regard. One only has to look at how the Democrats have turned California into a single party state to stop taking serious their tropes about anyone endangerin…

How did the Democrats turn California into a single party state? By giving the voters what they want? How do you think democracy works?

[deleted]

Re: The war on terror primed America for autocracy

#270

Post by fsflover »

thunky wrote: post #258
fsflover wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just an empty accusation without specific examples.

I'm saying that you could both be correct, which is not an accusation.

You didn't accuse, the parent did by saying that some unknown posts were flagged, which is an empty accusation, if it's without any links.
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