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Leaving Mozilla

blog.unitedheroes.net

261–270 of 346 posts

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#261

Interesting to read, but ultimately it's very easy to blame "leaders" for everything and I'm not sure it has much merit. It's popular to pile on them and their decisions. But I don't think it's as obvious as people (often here on HN) make it out to be. If Mozilla didn't try out these avenues deemed wrong, if Mozilla spent all money on the browser only, if Mozilla made the best browser ever, would that really make a d…

It doesn't seem a coincidence that it started to go down hill after they removed an engineer from CEO (Brendan Eich), and replaced him with a marketing dude, then a lawyer lady, and now an MBA bro.

It’s not.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox's market share peaked in 2009. Eich was CEO for 2 weeks in 2014. He resigned and declined Mozilla's offer to remain in another C level position. The same lawyer lady Mitchell Baker had every top job from 1999 to 2008.

"He resigned and declined Mozilla's offer to remain in another C level position." At this point I think it's clear his resignation was not voluntary. Maybe the other offer was sincere, or maybe it wasn't; I'm not sure how we could tell.

It was.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that while Firefox offered 20 extensions on mobile, Chrome offered zero and continues to lack any support for extensions whatsoever. Nobody ditched Firefox for Chrome because of the extensions thing. The move to WebExtensions was painful, but it also made it possible to easily port Chrome extensions to Firefox, which was a great boost for the extension ecosystem, as well as being the thing that actually…

I think your comment points towards the heart of my complaint, namely, that Firefox stopped extensions on its tracks to offer parity with a browser that doesn't care about extensions. It fits the post's complaint about doing things just because Chrome is doing them. As for the effect of extensions, my feeling is that people care less about them now but used to care more about them back then. I think Firefox main sell…

It's especially backwards because most extensions worked fine when they were first cut down to that list of 20.

They (the proclaimed bastion of user choice and freedom) just didn't allow you to install them. Forks and self-built versions handled extensions just fine immediately, there was no technical blocker, just managerial. For years. While constantly proclaiming that it was just a brief temporary state.

I switched to some of those forks immediately, literally every extension I used before worked perfectly. None of them were in the blessed list.

I honestly can't see it as anything but an intentional self-harm move, behind a bunch of smoke and mirrors.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#264
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extensions are the primary threat to your security today. Nothing else comes close. Organizations are not basically competent if they are not restricting or blocking extensions, and you should not have more than one to three very trusted extensions in your browser. I'd argue the case for eliminating them in favor of in house code is significant. As a reminder: Extensions execute with post-decryption access to the web…

I would argue that building in extension-like features inside the browser is worse. In both cases, that's extra code, with security implications, but in case of extensions, you can choose not to have it. Now, that's a question of whether you trust those who write the browser more than those who write the extension. And by the way, the argument you have is the same that justifies the much hated "manifestV3", which mak…

We obviously know Chrome team is not doing things for security reasons, they are doing things for ad revenue reasons. But it's also true that blocking ads requires an insane amount of trust: The uBlock Origin author can choose to read your bank account numbers and passwords. (Although he is high profile enough this would be caught quite quickly.)

Arguably the problem is that Manifest V3 proposed removing an ad blocking capability without replacement, whereas I would argue just as popup blocking was a couple decades ago, it belongs as a first class browser feature, not outsourcing extremely sensitive capabilities to random outside parties. Browsers should not be operated by (or funded by.........) ad networks, and should built high quality, secure tools to filter unwanted content from their users.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> bring that knowledge set with them Not just knowledge but personal connections for favors. “Hey, [talented editor] it’s [famous DP], do you think you could tame a crack at this scene in your spare time? I’m trying to make something out of nothing and I’m positive you’ve got the chops.” I don’t think anyone could reasonably call any of the exploitation self-inflicted. You have to take shit work a lot of times becaus…

I worked in the industry for over a decade and unfortunately it is very exploitative :/ i’ve watched line producers pressure production assistants, the lowest of the low on set, into lying about their hours so they don’t have to pay them OT under the guise of “being team players.” Lots of nonsense like that, mostly on non-union gigs. The self-inflicted comment is a bit tongue in cheek because they do it to their own…

It’s pretty sad. I knew a lot of people in the union crafts (New England, which is way different from LA from what I hear) during the good times and they said it was all great, but as soon as things got tight, it was tribal as fuck. (The IATSE set building roster went from a few hundred dues-paying members to a couple dozen, and most of them were persistently out of work… it is in pretty bad shape, so there’s only so much you can do I guess.) Most of the other people I know were in VFX houses/animation and that hasn’t been non-exploitative in like 20 years. Considering how much money a few people make in that business, it’s pathetic.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#266
post #82

Respect. This is what Firefox could have been. In the real world, in the same line as the article suggests, there was a brief time when the "puts you back in control" browser needed you to change the following about:config settings to disable the force-pushed ai: browser.ml.enable, browser.ml.chat.enabled, browser.ml.chat.sidebar, browser.ml.chat.menu, browser.ml.chat.page, extensions.ml.enabled, browser.ml.linkPrevi…

Look, I absolutely agree it sucks they didn't deliver the opt-out/in interface day one, it was obvious people would want it, and yes, it's not the first time they've blundered. At the same time, they did listen to the feedback and deliver. It now has a genuinely good interface for it where you don't have to opt out of everything, but can opt-in where you want it. It's not just a big off button, it's a general out-out…

That is true - Firefox is definitely held to a higher standard here and elsewhere. They marketed those values to us. So the criticisms, in my opinion, are definitely justified. And no, they aren't listening to their users.

If they had listened to their users they would have delivered what every users wants - just a browser. Not some kind of "platform" stuffed with lot of unwanted crap that makes it bloated and introduces possibly new unnecessary attack vectors in it (both malicious and / or privacy exploits). All those additional crap that every new management wants in Firefox should have been a browser extension or a plugin, instead of being bundled into the core browser. When a user installs / updates Firefox, they could be asked if they want to install any of these new feature available as an extension / plugin. That keeps the browser lean, transfers the choice completely to the user and is genuinely respectful of the user. The current way of force bundling everything into the browser, making it bloated, and then pretending that "users can opt-out" is not just arrogance but also misleading (to be polite) as it is common knowledge among software firms that most people often never change the default settings.

Think about it ... if every of these controversial features - Pocket, ads in address bar or home page, AI etc. etc. - had been made available as user opted extension or plugin, would there ever have been any controversies? The installation data itself would provide a feedback of how much the users actually care about these features, and provide unique insights to the management into the kind of user base that it has (which the article is spot-on about).

(Note that I know that some of these features are indeed implemented as an extension. But not as user controlled ones as they cannot be completely uninstalled. All the user can do is disable it (turn "off or on"). Why? It is stuff like this that makes it harder to trust claims of caring about user Privacy.)

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#267

Interesting to read, but ultimately it's very easy to blame "leaders" for everything and I'm not sure it has much merit. It's popular to pile on them and their decisions. But I don't think it's as obvious as people (often here on HN) make it out to be. If Mozilla didn't try out these avenues deemed wrong, if Mozilla spent all money on the browser only, if Mozilla made the best browser ever, would that really make a d…

It doesn't seem a coincidence that it started to go down hill after they removed an engineer from CEO (Brendan Eich), and replaced him with a marketing dude, then a lawyer lady, and now an MBA bro.

Agreed. For some reasons, the powers to be (Google?) didn't want someone who was independent (not be "guided" by Google), understood the core product technically and from an actual user's perspective, who may have been able to innovate Firefox into a better product and possibly even decouple Firefox from Google with alternative revenue streams (who knows, maybe instead of Brave Search, we may have had Firefox search?).

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#268
I like that take. There is a tendency in the software world to dream about becoming the BigTech we all hate.

I believe that the people who want Firefox want it because it's different, just like the people who want Linux want it because it is different. And similarly in Linux, many people keep explaining how Linux should look more like Windows if it wants the year of the Linux Desktop.

But I wouldn't be on Linux if I wanted Windows. I am not on Linux because I want everybody to be on Linux, on the contrary. Same applies for Firefox.

Re: Leaving Mozilla

#270
> That doesn't mean we can't become big. We did this before. When we listened to our Community, gave them what they wanted, let them work with us to build something amazing, they told their friends

Exactly this. Mozilla/Firefox lost their way when they stopped listening to the community.

Which is not to say you shouldn't try to build new cool things that the community hasn't thought of yet - but you should listen to them when they tell you it is terrible garbage that they do not want and there is no way to opt out.

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