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Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass
261–270 of 292 posts
Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass
#262[flagged]
Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents. Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
> Unfortunately, times have changed. Google management has quietly abandoned its goals to become carbon-neutral because of the AI model energy usage. Worse, Google management is now signing deals with the US Ministry of War—where “any lawful purpose” by the current US government has already been repeatedly demonstrated to be in violation of international laws. None of this is being debated or communicated within the company. It is just decided by top-level management (I was part of the management chain before, and I hadn’t heard of any of these changes through internal channels). With my moral and ethical principles, I cannot—explicitly or implicitly, directly or transitively—support the current and ongoing actions of the “Maximum lethality, not tepid legality” US Ministry of War.
This entire article is already engaging in political and ideological battle - René Mayrhofer is explicitly saying that he's unwilling to work at Google because he has a political problem with some of the decisions Google is making, namely abandoning earlier stated carbon-neutrality goals and being willing to make deals with the US military.
My contention is that if he considers this to constitute Google losing its moral compass but not the James Damore incident, which happened the same year he started working at Google; then there's no particular reason to think that his notion of a "moral compass" is any different from object-level agreement or disagreement (or simply not caring), about any particular decision that Google makes. Someone similar to Mayrhofer might well be willing to work for Google because they make a different judgement than he does about the political importance of AI model energy usage; and throwing terms like "moral compass" around is exactly equivalent to having an object-level disagreement about a political issue.
Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass
#263Earlier quoted context omitted.
And what evidence of systemic bias would that be? The experiment I linked above sent monitored the callback rates of applicants sent out to Bay Area tech companies for technical roles, and saw higher callback rates for women. This is the sort of prototypical evidence we use as an example of systemic anti-Black bias where Black applicants are called back less frequently than white applicants. Is Google, specifically,…
And this is why I said that I'm not going to change your mind. The gender bias is clear in individual experience and data, all it takes is talking to women (or people of colour, or whatever under represented group you want) to see it. I think Google does pretty well on this, largely due to the diversity programs that Damore was calling to have abolished.
> The gender bias is clear in individual experience and data, all it takes is talking to women (or people of colour, or whatever under represented group you want) to see it.
Nonwhites are not actually underrepresented at tech companies like Google, and the fact that you casually claim they are in an aside should cast serious doubts on other arguments you make as well.
Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass
#264Earlier quoted context omitted.
At this point I assume anyone with more than five years at Google is morally bankrupt to at least some degree. I don't want to paint them as bad people or anything but can't find better words for it - it's so obvious that if you stick around, you are accepting it and likely contributing to some degree. People I still talk to are generally honest about accepting it. I wonder if they will all reneg with this sort of qu…
I think you're coming from a privileged position - finding a job is extremely hard*, and if someone stayed somewhere that paid well then it's a bit extreme to say they're "bankrupt" morally. Alternatives are finance, ad tech, big consulting, etc. Are YOU working for a non profit? * For us, maybe not for you.
Are you seriously suggesting that someone with Google listed on their resume would have a hard time finding a job?? Pathetic.
Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass
#265Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nice whataboutism. This pointless internet interaction is over .
It’s not “whataboutism” because it’s relating to the same event, not a different event. In context of the facts, it seems like your complaint is that the name is being changed to accurately reflect what the DOD was already doing.
Nice whataboutism. This pointless internet interaction is over.
Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass
#266. Weapons or other technologies whose principal purpose or implementation is to cause or directly facilitate injury to people. So if our enemies had no qualms at all about doing this, wouldn't it make sense that we have weapons that can at least counter, and potentially fight back? Would it be facilitating injury if the AI is used to stop an ISIS linked attack in our homeland? > "Don't be evil" Can evil also be inter…
> if the AI is used to stop an ISIS Describe that scenario to me. What precisely is the language model going to do? To defeat a _terrorist_ organization? I feel like this is way to asymmetric of a philosophy to actually work, but, I'm curious to know what your imagination holds on this one. > Can evil also be interpreted as letting your government be impotent in protecting you? The government _is_ impotent in protect…
You must be one of those people asking to free Karmelo?
Some things are just simple. ISIS is a terrorist organization you're carrying water for. Most of the mission of ISIS is simply spread Islam and kill infidels. Islam had that charter prior to the creation of America by the way.
Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass
#267Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s not “whataboutism” because it’s relating to the same event, not a different event. In context of the facts, it seems like your complaint is that the name is being changed to accurately reflect what the DOD was already doing.
Nice whataboutism. This pointless internet interaction is over.
Is it over because making real arguments backed by facts are hard?
Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass
#268Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> And guantanamo bay is on the south side of Cuba, not even between Cuba and the US > It's relevant to the macho point of Jack Nicholson's character talking a bunch of shit about how he defends us. The Guantanamo base is irrelevant You think a naval base on Cuba is “irrelevant” because it’s on the south side of the island and not the north side?
You think Cuba represents a naval threat to the mainland US? I had higher expectations for you based on your other comments.
Soviet-allied Cuba was a military threat to the U.S. in 1986 which is when the movie is set. Don’t forget the movie was written before the fall of the Soviet Union. And even when it came out in 1992, it wasn’t clear to audiences that the cold war was really over.
Is Cuba a military threat today? No. But that’s because we have had a navel base there for more than a century, and the Soviet Union is long gone.
Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass
#269[flagged]
Look I understand he didnt give up on every good thing in life following his principles. But how many people actually resigned and wrote their reasons why?
It at least gets circulated and discussed. Even at Google I'd assume people who have the privilege, seriously thought of leaving or way better if someone knows something really shady is going on, whistleblowing.
The thing is sure you are right, but if I started living my life "I cant ever say or have principles and act based on them, because about 25 years ago I broke one so now its not allowed" then, that surely, would ruin my life and if everybody did society and wouldn't these companies love that? When we all give up so easy? Aren't the companies the first that go on sexual harassment allegations with "if this was going on for years, why you coming out now, huh? Ncncnc".
So my point is, its still appreciated. Lets work with reality and not that idealistic version of society where only the perfect people can decide our ethical directions because they dont exist and we will fall into the dark.
Re: Why I'm Forced to Say Farewell: Google Management Has Lost Its Moral Compass
#270Personally, I don't get why people blindly reject any collaboration with the military. I understand that they are pacifists, but I still don't get it. When I look at history, I see so many tragedies caused by being weak. Both Germany and the Soviet Union were able to invade Poland, for instance, and the Katyn massacre is a national scar. And who wouldn't want to defeat invaders like Genghis Khan? Have you ever heard…
Because most other countries don't even have a quarter of the military and resources the US has and there its usually about survival and defense of their borders with direct neighbors or at worst case region.
But with the US military, at least the years I was alive, it seemed to be never a real national security threat at the borders but very far away and for so not obvious reasons.
In the end however I agree with your "defense is necessary" and that's why NATO exists and should be developed further so its more strict and almost all nations worldwide join.