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Remove-AI-Watermarks – CLI and library for removing AI watermarks from images

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Re: Remove-AI-Watermarks – CLI and library for removing AI watermarks from images

#261

Post by digitaltrees »

transcriptase wrote: post #188
hurril wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is again conflating at least two things and this is so prevalent in this context. Let us not conflate how annoying DRM:s are to us users that buy the things, with pirates thinking they somehow have a right to use any software without paying fairly for it. I would even go as far as to say that you pirates are the reason I have to have a DRM in the shit I bought and paid for.

Piracy is as easy now as it was pre-DRM. DRM is the digital equivalent to security screws on electronics, in that they’re a mechanism for lawyers to argue their client made an attempt despite being easily bypassed with a trivial amount of effort.

Exactly this. The real power is in the regulatory grant of a monopoly that comes with rights like the ability to sue for damages, issue take down notices etc. the DRM does allow restrictions on distribution because many people can’t be bothered to remove them, but more importantly the act of removing them is evidence of the intent to knowingly violate the copyright which might be harder to prove otherwise

Re: Remove-AI-Watermarks – CLI and library for removing AI watermarks from images

#262

Post by digitaltrees »

egeozcan wrote: post #139
digitaltrees wrote: post #124

Why? Don’t do this. Society is built on an implicit assumption of trust. You will erode the foundation that enables any success you might have in the short term.

IMHO you cannot base your trust on something that is so easy to work around. Trust should be between people, not a person and some data. So showing how easy to generate "false" data, this makes it more obvious for people focus on other people. Trusting people makes life much easier in my experience, while focusing on data, again in my experience, is a game of cat and mouse.

Except how do you have trust between people when deep fakes and voice clones are trivial to spin up? Are we going to have to go back to doing business physically in person?

If I got a picture of my mom being held hostage it sure would be nice to have a watermark confirming in was an AI generated image. So again, why make this broadly an easily removable?

Re: Remove-AI-Watermarks – CLI and library for removing AI watermarks from images

#263

Post by digitaltrees »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #167
InsideOutSanta wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trusting people makes life much easier in my experience Sure, but how do you apply that to a society at large where powerful people are interested in making everybody distrust all reliable sources of information? AI watermarks are no panacea, but at least they are a clear signal of what not to trust.

> Sure, but how do you apply that to a society at large where powerful people are interested in making everybody distrust all reliable sources of information? Isn't that the scenario the watermarks are useless against? Adversarial governments or anyone with enough money will be the ones who can generate images without watermarks even if you force them on the proles. > AI watermarks are no panacea, but at least they a…

Again, just because something is possible doesn’t mean we should make it broadly available. Sure the CIA can manufacture poison to assassinate someone, that doesn’t mean we should make it broadly available.

That being said, I’ll make a counter argument. To the extent that deep fakes need to be so wide spread that everyone becomes skeptical and there is no other way to trigger broad diligence then maybe there is a case to be made. But I am concerned that this will be worse than a more broadly trusted image environment

Re: Remove-AI-Watermarks – CLI and library for removing AI watermarks from images

#264

Post by digitaltrees »

survirtual wrote: post #165
InsideOutSanta wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Trusting people makes life much easier in my experience Sure, but how do you apply that to a society at large where powerful people are interested in making everybody distrust all reliable sources of information? AI watermarks are no panacea, but at least they are a clear signal of what not to trust.

AI watermarks empower elite / those with resources and disempowers the common person. Only people with resources will be allowed to make content that is AI generated passed off as real. Pandora's box is open. Instead of making a multi-tiered privileged society, we need to fundamentally restructure society to adapt. Before that restructuring occurs it is critical to keep the playing field level. These are not tools th…

That’s a reasonable argument. But why should we tolerate the two tier system? Why not enforce a restriction on all images? Why do we have to accept someone is above the law?

Re: Remove-AI-Watermarks – CLI and library for removing AI watermarks from images

#265

Post by digitaltrees »

jauer wrote: post #138
digitaltrees wrote: post #124

Why? Don’t do this. Society is built on an implicit assumption of trust. You will erode the foundation that enables any success you might have in the short term.

Information is default low-trust unless you have reason to extend trust to the source and that's been the case for thousands of years, if not the entirety of human existence. We now have the tools to increase trust in specific information, for example: by signing images that need high trust for things like news reporting using camera hardware root of trust with time and geo stamping. If signatures are removed, that's…

I don’t want kidnapping scammers to have easy to fake image generators that are untraceable. I don’t want eBay scammers to have that (sometimes I will ask the seller to take a picture with specific information to confirm a listing is credible). I could site lots more examples

Re: Remove-AI-Watermarks – CLI and library for removing AI watermarks from images

#266

Post by digitaltrees »

antiloper wrote: post #156
digitaltrees wrote: post #124

Why? Don’t do this. Society is built on an implicit assumption of trust. You will erode the foundation that enables any success you might have in the short term.

> You will erode the foundation that enables any success you might have in the short term. It's too late already. We live in a post-trust society now.

But why make it worse and easier to avoid detection?

Re: Remove-AI-Watermarks – CLI and library for removing AI watermarks from images

#267

Post by digitaltrees »

probably_wrong wrote: post #168
digitaltrees wrote: post #124

Why? Don’t do this. Society is built on an implicit assumption of trust. You will erode the foundation that enables any success you might have in the short term.

I'd like to frame this differently: watermarking is a (weaker) form of DRM, and DRM has never worked in favor of the users. I know of at least one music GenAI service whose ToS forbid me from using their productions in ways that are incompatible with my local rights. If Google decides, as they did with YouTube, that they'll enforce this company's watermark even though I have a right to use their results then I've pas…

I don’t think the military should be allowed to generate fake images. I do think there should be international standards on AI because the social harm is universal and dangerous. Just like we don’t allow chemical weapons etc.

Re: Remove-AI-Watermarks – CLI and library for removing AI watermarks from images

#268

Post by digitaltrees »

bsza wrote: post #161
digitaltrees wrote: post #124

Why? Don’t do this. Society is built on an implicit assumption of trust. You will erode the foundation that enables any success you might have in the short term.

Would you prefer if someone did the same thing and kept it to themselves (or sold it to the highest bidder)? I think knowing it exists is better than not knowing it exists.

No. I would prefer we, as a community, don’t build this. I am under no illusion that I will persuade all people but I feel clarity that it is morally and practically unwise to build a tool like this at all and especially unwise to publish it as a freely available open source project

Re: Remove-AI-Watermarks – CLI and library for removing AI watermarks from images

#269

Post by digitaltrees »

xeyownt wrote: post #160
digitaltrees wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watermarks exists to create a chain of custody or attribution that can be used to establish culpability. Just like the government requires printer companies to add a dot matrix watermark to printed pages to prevent currency forgery. Making untraceable assets means parties can’t be held liable for harms. Just because a bad actor might poison a toddler doesn’t mean you should sell them the arsenic. Just because the eff…

No. All watermarks are cures that are worse than the diseases they are trying to prevent (and never achieved to even cure anything). Watermark is a blatant violation of legitimate privacy expectations, while not preventing anything because they can be easily removed. So all the honest usages are punished, while illegitimate ones are not caught.

A water mark that identifies you personally is a different prospect than one that merely identifies the image as AI generated.

I am with you on opposing a watermark that identifies a person.

I am not with you in saying all watermarks are a violation of privacy or that they result in punishment of honest use. I don’t see how those follow.

Re: Remove-AI-Watermarks – CLI and library for removing AI watermarks from images

#270

Post by digitaltrees »

hathym wrote: post #174
digitaltrees wrote: post #124

Why? Don’t do this. Society is built on an implicit assumption of trust. You will erode the foundation that enables any success you might have in the short term.

lol

The electricity used to send the http request, run the lisp code on the server, save it to whatever database Paul Graham used to build HN and render it on my display could have been put to better use that your comment. Or mine. :)
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