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He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

diabettech.com

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Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#261

Post by tsimionescu »

lukeschlather wrote: post #251
throwaw12 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you didn't understand the goal of this study > The DTN-UK stated earlier this year that generic LLMs must never be used as autonomous advisory calculators for insulin delivery. This data is the quantitative evidence base for that statement. This study is to prove that you should not rely on LLMs

The thing is it doesn't really prove LLMs can't do this, it proves no existing frontier LLMs can do this. The part where they talk about sampling multiple runs is interesting - it suggests to me that in the next few years as the reasoning process is improved the models may be able to do that autonomously. My mind really is going to using a dedicated object detection models fine-tuned with nutrition information, but I…

Per some people, LLMs of the future can do literally anything that's possible to do. They could create quantum computers powered by fusion power.

That has nothing to do with the question being asked, can you rely on an LLM today to help you track carbs as a diabetic?

This is very explicitly what the article is all about. Potential future LLMs are entirely irrelevant.

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#262

Post by sleepybrett »

endymion-light wrote: post #210
datsci_est_2015 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The obvious meme to invoke here is: - AI will solve all of our problems - No not like that! Are the trillion dollars sloshing around the AI economy well-invested if the refrain is always “you’re holding it wrong”? So we’re trying to define, through trial and error, what problems “AI” will actually solve, and this paper is one of the many cobblestones on that road.

i mean it's more like "AI can solve this one problem, but it needs X, Y, Z, because it's not a omnipotent god entity" "I tried it without any of those things and it didn't work - this is worthless tech!" I don't know if more accurate calorie counting using AI exists - but it's like being upset that the screwdriver isn't gluing wood. AI is far more than frontier LLMs.

> "AI can solve this one problem, but it needs X, Y, Z, because it's not a omnipotent god entity"

0 advertisements from openai or anthropic say this. They all sell you an omnipotent god entity.

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#263

Post by tsimionescu »

The_Blade wrote: post #175
throwaw12 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you didn't understand the goal of this study > The DTN-UK stated earlier this year that generic LLMs must never be used as autonomous advisory calculators for insulin delivery. This data is the quantitative evidence base for that statement. This study is to prove that you should not rely on LLMs

that is good to know. presented this way i find LLM behavior to be a feature, not a bug. then again i think everything is value add over pen and paper / notepad / spreadsheet and maybe a friend or doctor (or specialized equipment if you need more than calorie in, calorie out). just go exercise and don't be a lard lad

> just go exercise and don't be a lard lad

This is about people suffering from diabetes tracking their insulin needs. You can outrun any diet, but not insulin shots.

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#264

Post by slumpt_ »

endymion-light wrote: post #43

There's an incredibly serious lack of education with how LLMs & carb-counting works. This entire article would be better suited to astrology.com than hackernews. When I opened it up, I assumed the author would have at least attempted a calculation service, maybe even placed something like the size of the meal into an actual model, using the integration of pre-existing tools that are (slightly more) accurate. Hell - m…

This is how a lot of regular people are engaging with AI, whether you consider it silly or not.

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#265

Post by datsci_est_2015 »

endymion-light wrote: post #210
datsci_est_2015 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The obvious meme to invoke here is: - AI will solve all of our problems - No not like that! Are the trillion dollars sloshing around the AI economy well-invested if the refrain is always “you’re holding it wrong”? So we’re trying to define, through trial and error, what problems “AI” will actually solve, and this paper is one of the many cobblestones on that road.

i mean it's more like "AI can solve this one problem, but it needs X, Y, Z, because it's not a omnipotent god entity" "I tried it without any of those things and it didn't work - this is worthless tech!" I don't know if more accurate calorie counting using AI exists - but it's like being upset that the screwdriver isn't gluing wood. AI is far more than frontier LLMs.

There are plenty of positions on the spectrum from “omnipotent God entity” and “Casio SL-300SV”. What does the current valuation of LLMaaS companies represent though?

LLMs are certainly not worthless, that’s a strawman in the same way my statement “AI will solve all of our problems” is a strawman. The question of their worth is being explored.

“AI is a black box that can solve problems”. Which problems? How consistently? At what cost? How quickly?

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#266

Post by nekusar »

andrewvc wrote: post #189
endymion-light wrote: post #43

There's an incredibly serious lack of education with how LLMs & carb-counting works. This entire article would be better suited to astrology.com than hackernews. When I opened it up, I assumed the author would have at least attempted a calculation service, maybe even placed something like the size of the meal into an actual model, using the integration of pre-existing tools that are (slightly more) accurate. Hell - m…

One of the biggest gaps is that people don't understand that food labels are allowed by the FDA to be off by up to 20% in terms of the number of actual calories! In the real world you need to calibrate your behavior with the results. Are you gaining weight? You'll need to eat less if you want to lose any. You can do all the math with nutrition labels and macros you want but that's all theoretical. See this study belo…

Its even weirder.

What has more calories: 1 lb of peanuts, OR 1 lb of peanuts ground into peanut butter?

I cant find the study, but the peanut butter has more calories since its pre-ground and more bioavailable. Peanuts get chomped up but larger pieces still remain and are not captured by the body.

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#267

Post by jrm4 »

endymion-light wrote: post #43

There's an incredibly serious lack of education with how LLMs & carb-counting works. This entire article would be better suited to astrology.com than hackernews. When I opened it up, I assumed the author would have at least attempted a calculation service, maybe even placed something like the size of the meal into an actual model, using the integration of pre-existing tools that are (slightly more) accurate. Hell - m…

This strikes me as a good "meta" article, though. As in, yes, people here probably don't need this. But perhaps a lot of other people do.

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#268

Post by tsimionescu »

endymion-light wrote: post #141
Aurornis wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the author just took pictures of food & expected a realistic response? Is this genuinely what amounts to a study in AI? The article explains this: There are apps targeting people with diabetes that claim to count your carbs with AI. > If you’re using AI carb counting in a diabetes app Before you dismiss a study, try to understand where it’s coming from. The authors of the study weren’t stupid. They knew the LLM…

I don't believe the authors of this study are stupid. If there are apps targeting people with diabetes that claims to count your carbs with AI, why haven't those been analysed? That would be a far more effective claim. I based the study off of the clickbait article that they wrote about the study - i'll read through the study to see whether they analyse that, but it would be far more effective to see if the 'carb-cou…

The linked "click bait" article explains this very clearly as well. It clearly explains the methodology: they took the prompt sent to an LLM by a popular open source carb counting iOS app and sent it, together with five different pictures of food that a typical person might take, to all of the frontier models, and checked the responses. They also explain the purpose: to check the possible accuracy of this approach taken by a real app that real people use.

The fact that you somehow perceived this as an attack on LLMs as a technology is a failure entirely on your part. There is nothing in the article that suggests that people shouldn't use LLMs for other purposes - just a statistical verification of the fact that they shouldn't be used for this one particular thing.

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#269

Post by mathgradthrow »

endymion-light wrote: post #43

There's an incredibly serious lack of education with how LLMs & carb-counting works. This entire article would be better suited to astrology.com than hackernews. When I opened it up, I assumed the author would have at least attempted a calculation service, maybe even placed something like the size of the meal into an actual model, using the integration of pre-existing tools that are (slightly more) accurate. Hell - m…

a realistic response? What's a realistic response to "how many calories are in an avocado?"

If you are counting calories, you don't want the answer to "how many calories are in the average avocado?", you want to know how many calories are in this avocado. Remember that bodyweight is roughly linear with BMR, so a 10% error in calorie counting is an extra 10% of bodyweight.

Re: He asked AI to count carbs 27000 times. It couldn't give the same answer twice

#270

Post by [deleted] »

2ndorderthought wrote: post #28
jaccola wrote: post #6

It’s just an impossible problem. Photons don’t provide sufficient information to determine calories (at least not in any way they could practically be captured). Inside that sandwich could be drenched with olive oil or it could be hollow cheese with lettuce. It’s impossible to tell.

The average person has no idea this is true. And the average person cannot tell when this is the case. So we have a bunch of people, going their way through school, and then when they get stuck relying on AI. The future is gonna be wild.

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