Maladaptive Frugality • Hacker News Board

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#261

Post by Karrot_Kream » Fri, May 01, 2026, 9:20 PM UTC

wallst07 wrote: post #92

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I started driving my car had vinyl seats that you had to peel yourself out of on a hot day, a plastic steering wheel that you could barely touch when the sun was out, hand wound windows, fixed seat belts and a handbrake that barely worked. Even the cheapest car on the market feels luxurious now. In comparison the difference between a Toyota and a Lexus is marginal. Expensive cars are mostly about status signalli…

>Expensive cars are mostly about status signalling Uhm, only if you are counting the most basic utility, then you're right. However if you actually enjoy driving (A->A driving), there is a HGUE difference and it's not just signaling. It's that you probably can't tell the difference, or don't care. There is no comparison between driving a new Porsche or Bentley vs a new Toyota or even a Lexus.

I'm curious what the breakdown is. I definitely know people who buy nice cars just for the status aspect. My neighbor bought a Porsche recently and I was talking to them about which fun roads they've driven in around here (I bike and ride motorcycles so I've been on a lot of fun backroads) and they said they've only tried one road once.

I ended up asking them what they do with their Porsche and apparently it's mostly going to car meetups and saying that they have a Porsche and feeling good about owning a Porsche.

So yeah as a former Miata owner I know that expensive cars tend to just be more fun to drive but if you live in an HCOL area with people who are highly leveraged, you'll find a lot of people who buy nice cars only for status signaling. I suspect in HCOL areas more do it for status than the actual love of driving.

(FWIW I find this in a lot of hobbies. I can ride a loaner bike faster than a lot of riders around here decked out in fancy kit, clips, and the best groupsets. A lot of people in HCOL areas engage in hobbies as an excuse to nurse a shopping and status addiction.)

Which goes back to the root comment that a lot of tech people highly leverage their life because it enables them to have a lifestyle and status that they think they need or deserve.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#262

Post by Karrot_Kream » Fri, May 01, 2026, 9:31 PM UTC

ubermonkey wrote: post #255

bachmeier wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heavy debt is a part of the US culture. You can probably imagine the responses folks would have when they found out I was 40, a tenured professor with a family, and didn't own a house. Nobody had a heart attack but I'm sure some were close. I was just violating cultural norms too much by not going into debt to buy a house as anyone in my position was supposed to do. Then they'd find out I drove an old vehicle and did…

Home debt has traditionally been seen as "good debt" for a bunch of reasons, but the big ones were that (a) Home loans meant you were accumulating equity in an appreciating asset; and (b) Mortgage interest was enough to allow most people to take a larger-than-standard deduction on income taxes; and (c) The relationship between home prices and the equivalent rental market meant you could probably have a nicer place fo…

> Last year I sold a townhouse in Houston that I'd owned since 2000; I made money, but not the kind of upside that you wanna write home about

Sure but you made money. If you had rented you would have lost that money. Renting only makes sense if the opportunity cost is higher, e.g. if you think the time value of the money that would be put into the down payment is higher in the markets than it would have been on a home. The other thing is mortgages are risk uncorrelated with major equities, usually at least. If there's a major recession your equities may be underwater for a few years. Your fixed rate mortgage will stay the same.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#263

Post by bdangubic » Fri, May 01, 2026, 9:34 PM UTC

bmm6o wrote: post #245

bdangubic wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had mortage on a condo for $460k. total money paid to pay it off via debt, little over $1m. I sell 30 years later for $460k I just lost $550k :) (I didn’t, paid it off in 5 years saving myself 100’s of thousands …) ask yourself why “we” think that some debt (e.g. real estate) is great) while others (e.g. vehicle) is bad? it just might ge that one is looked at as appreciating asset while the other not so much. comme…

Let's say that each month I have an extra $1000. Should I use that money to pay down a 4% mortgage, or should I invest it in an index fund that is all but guaranteed to earn more than that?

> that is all but guaranteed to earn more than that?

say SP500 nominal avg is around 10% - no brainer, yes? but that is an avg of many 30-year windows. some 30-year windows might not be that kind to you. market crash in say first 5-6 years will hurt you a lot

so there is just no certainty here except we think (just like we expect appreciation on the house) we’ll end up on the “right” side of this.

and of course not to mention the most obvious, roughly 99.56% of people will not be investing this money to get more than 4%…

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#264

Post by cryptopian » Fri, May 01, 2026, 9:34 PM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #205

Nifty3929 wrote: post #151

To me this is so much about where you focus your attention. Even from a purely financial perspective. Mental space dedicated to watching your expenses is space you aren't using to improve your top-line. Some people are very proud of being frugal, spending time optimizing expenses - while earning far less than they could otherwise because they don't spend any mental energy on how to earn more. Meanwhile others are spe…

Not everyone wants to live a life "focused on earning more money." I have a low salary considering my experience in the tech sector. However I have a job that is low stress, has good benefits, and a very low risk of layoff or downsizing. I don't spend money on a lot of things that other people do. I drive an old car. I have an old phone. My home computer is probably 10 years old. I don't buy expensive clothes. I cook…

I'm in a similar place. The greatest luxury the money bought me was that last year, when my job was made redundant, I knew I had over a year before I had to start worrying financially (I found a new position shortly after my garden leave finished)

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#265

Post by fuzzfactor » Fri, May 01, 2026, 9:36 PM UTC

redwood wrote: post #2

Agree wholeheartedly but I worry some will read this and go all in the opposite. The key point is that humility helps make you free. Couple that with not being a slave to frugality and you can live without as much guilt and without a much restraint.

Wise philosophy :)

Though sometimes you may have to choose between being a slave to something less enabling than frugality :\

It really gets bad for those who can't even afford to reach as high as a truly frugal contemporary.

IOW below-frugal becomes a constant element regardless of its current value at any one time, and that leaves the only variable as whether or not any adaptability can be attempted at all, and how much might not be too much to ask :(

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#266

Post by wing-_-nuts » Fri, May 01, 2026, 9:37 PM UTC

wallst07 wrote: post #253

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bah. I've driven luxury bmws, porches, and corvettes. You want to know what my daily driver is? A miata. Those other cars are faster, yes, but nothing else makes driving quite the occasion that a miata does. You don't have to go expensive to buy something you actually enjoy driving.

Miata is the exception, it is fun to drive... and it was engineered to be that way.

Yep, I've always said it's much more fun to drive a 'slow car fast' than a fast car slow. I drove a friends suped up vette and I could barely breathe on the gas pedal without breaking laws. Meanwhile I can rip my miata to redline in 3rd gear and not raise too much suspicion getting on the interstate.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#267

Post by ubermonkey » Fri, May 01, 2026, 9:39 PM UTC

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #262

ubermonkey wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Home debt has traditionally been seen as "good debt" for a bunch of reasons, but the big ones were that (a) Home loans meant you were accumulating equity in an appreciating asset; and (b) Mortgage interest was enough to allow most people to take a larger-than-standard deduction on income taxes; and (c) The relationship between home prices and the equivalent rental market meant you could probably have a nicer place fo…

> Last year I sold a townhouse in Houston that I'd owned since 2000; I made money, but not the kind of upside that you wanna write home about Sure but you made money. If you had rented you would have lost that money. Renting only makes sense if the opportunity cost is higher, e.g. if you think the time value of the money that would be put into the down payment is higher in the markets than it would have been on a hom…

I'm saying it made sense for ME in 2000. I'm saying it's less obviously a good move for a 30 year old in 2026.

I have a strong suspicion that housing is due for a correction. Appreciation requires demand, and housing is now so expensive that Gen Z can't get on the ladder. That plus the looming Boomer die-off seems to point to a reversal of some housing gains.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#268

Post by wing-_-nuts » Fri, May 01, 2026, 9:42 PM UTC

bigfudge wrote: post #161

ubermonkey wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They cannot, because they are wrong. And I say this as a person who has owned no small number of fancy cars (but I got better). A new base-model Prius is absurdly luxurious compared to a base model car of 1975 or 1985 or even 1995. If you have lived long enough to see this change, then dropping 2x or 3x or 10x the cost of the Prius self-evidently puts you wildly beyond the point of diminishing returns. The Prius is g…

Even in motorsports, presumably it’s still mostly showing off? Unless you are a pro, you’d still lose any seriously comepetitivr race and have plenty to learn and enjoy driving a not-quite-top of the line sports car? I don’t know motorsports, but in all the sports I do know it’s that way. Tennis, cycling… there are serious diminishing returns in all of those and most kit spending isn’t justified by performance as muc…

>Even in motorsports, presumably it’s still mostly showing off? Unless you are a pro, you’d still lose any seriously comepetitivr race and have plenty to learn and enjoy driving a not-quite-top of the line sports car?

I was at a track day once, and you'd see guys rolling up with very expensive cars, and they were often clocked as noobs before anyone even spoke to them. The guy rolling up with a beat up 1st gen miata pulling a trailer with two sets of spare tires? Yeah, that guy got respect. Dude was scary quick in the turns.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#269

Post by kristianp » Fri, May 01, 2026, 10:21 PM UTC

ubermonkey wrote: post #255

bachmeier wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heavy debt is a part of the US culture. You can probably imagine the responses folks would have when they found out I was 40, a tenured professor with a family, and didn't own a house. Nobody had a heart attack but I'm sure some were close. I was just violating cultural norms too much by not going into debt to buy a house as anyone in my position was supposed to do. Then they'd find out I drove an old vehicle and did…

Home debt has traditionally been seen as "good debt" for a bunch of reasons, but the big ones were that (a) Home loans meant you were accumulating equity in an appreciating asset; and (b) Mortgage interest was enough to allow most people to take a larger-than-standard deduction on income taxes; and (c) The relationship between home prices and the equivalent rental market meant you could probably have a nicer place fo…

For me, owning your own home is partly about (mostly) paying it off before retirement, that way most people won't need a large retirement income to pay the rent. Also in my country, aged care asks for a large refundable deposit, for example 600k, if it comes to that.

It doesn't pay for the increased medical expenses near the end. But it can pay them off if sold after death.

Re: Maladaptive Frugality

#270

Post by kristianp » Fri, May 01, 2026, 10:31 PM UTC

catcowcostume wrote: post #11

arjie wrote: post #8

A wife is a useful thing to have in this respect, not because they tend to profligacy, but because this kind of thing is much easier to detect and fix in someone close to you than in yourself. Both my wife and I have lived frugal lives at various times[0] and I feel much happier with the degree of spending we have now. I'm reminded of the intelligent corvids in Adrian Tchaikovsky's Children of Memory where the sum of…

Just a reminder that since a couple of centuries ago in most Western societies, wives are not "things" anymore, but rather human beings on the same level as husbands.

You seem to forget, we're all just squishy meatbags to our future AI overlords. Whom I welcome, by the way (1).

(1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKx3JlTnHbc