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Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

asahilinux.org

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Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#261
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real answer is probably simpler than anyone here is making it. Apple hardware margins are healthy enough that selling macbooks to linux users is pure profit, so no services lock-in needed. However, the moment they officially acknowledge Linux support, then it becomes a support surface. Every kernel panic becomes a genius bar visit. Every driver bug becomes a tweet at @AppleSupport. It's the value of plausible den…

> However, the moment they officially acknowledge Linux support, then it becomes a support surface. Apple documents lots of things the genius bar won't help with. For example, Apple provides instructions for compiling custom builds of the XNU kernel. However, if you replace the stock kernel and your Mac kernel panics, the genius bar isn't going to help you. (Maybe they'd help you wipe the computer and restore everyth…

You’d need legal to sign off on that too.

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does Ubuntu Linux on recent Qualcomm (ex-Apple Nuvia) Arm laptops compare to Asahi Linux on Apple Silicon?

Pretty rude to call this ex Apple Nuvia. I don't think any of those lawsuits by Apple or ARM have been won. Qualcomm declares this to be a new chip. But yes it has talent from those places. Still, let's not try to tip the scales of perception quite so indelicately? I am curious what the boot situation is. It seems like Qualcomm actually has pretty good support for their cores. But since these PC systems sort of lack…

> these PC systems sort of lack a bios, each one needing a hand built DeviceTree: it makes supporting them kind of a nightmare.

Modern PC ARM systems like Snapdragon Elite X use UEFI and ACPI. This is actually what makes them difficult, because they're trying to operate in a "new world" while most ARM SOC IP and peripheral drivers work in the "old world."

The issue with ARM has never _really_ been early boot; yes, it's arcane and a pain in the butt on some platforms, but it really only needs to be done once - once your DRAM is trained and running (this is usually the hardest part) and you can load and jump into a kernel, you're set. Hypervisor / security processor driven systems like Qualcomm (and for that matter, Intel and AMD) actually make this even easier at the expense of openness, because the vendor blob usually brought everything up for you already.

The issue has always been hardware discovery and mutable device configuration. When ARM devices were first supported by Linux, they were mostly embedded devices with one configuration, ever. So, they used devicetree, which is a fixed structure for each board, defined before boot and provided by the bootloader.

Because of this, most SOC / platform / IP soft-core drivers were built to work with fixed, proprietary configurations and usually only tested against a single platform to start.

On the other hand, x86 devices have been forced to work as highly mutable, arbitrary combinations of hardware (Plug n Play) with dynamic reconfiguration using ACPI since the start, so the drivers for x86 peripherals have always had to cope with a completely unpredictable environment.

What this means is that there's a ton of effort required to transition ARM _peripheral drivers_ from the "devicetree" world where drivers took fixed arbitrary, proprietary key=value parameters provided by a magic blob at boot to the ACPI world, where everything is dynamic, scripted, and abstract.

I'd actually argue that Pi have the most hacked tooling on top of the "old devicetree way," which means they're the most set on it. Pi peripherals are usually configured at pre-boot time using devicetree overlays and their drivers usually don't support any kind of probing/autodiscovery. As far as I know there's no real plan to change this (and maybe there doesn't have to be; it seems to work for them).

Anyway, this is all to say: I don't think the issue with either system is the "boot situation," it's the "peripheral configuration situation." In this sense, Asahi are actually in a fine situation to use devicetrees, which they do, because basically all of the SOC peripherals are proprietary and there are a fixed number of Apple devices to target and the only external interfaces are existing hot plug standards (USB/Thunderbolt/HDMI/DP). Qualcomm are smart to have started to try to use ACPI, because their SoCs could be hosted on boards with standard peripherals configured in thousands of different ways, like all PCs. But, they're playing on hard mode because most of the existing ARM peripheral drivers weren't made to support this model.

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#264
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus, no, that's not called support.

As used by commercial hardware and software vendors, "support" can mean anything from "we'll come fix it for you when it breaks, or your money back" to merely "theoretically, it should work, and we won't get in the way of you trying". Likewise, "unsupported" can mean anything from "don't complain to us if it doesn't work" to "we're going to spend significant engineering effort to prevent it from working". A stance of…

We're talking about "people walking into Genius Bar expecting help with Linux" support. It's not philosophical discussion on what support is, there's literally a specific thing discussed here.

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except there's no legal basis Apple could use to "instantly kill" the project.

Apple could change the platform/firmware to break Asahi if they wanted to. They could lock down the hardware to make it nearly impossible to install another OS like they do with iphone.

They could, but that wouldn't change that there's still no legal basis that jeopardizes anything that's already been contributed.

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More likely it’s that 48 kHz is a more sensible default, since the majority of non-music digital audio is sampled at 48 kHz, almost anyone who cares about potential audio artifacts introduced by resampling is going to be using an external DAC, and (from an Apple-centric viewpoint) almost anyone concerned about the energy consumption of music playback on their MacBook is going to listen to music on their iPhone instea…

Maybe this is a little pedantic, but we're not talking about a default among the many other available options supported by the chip. We're talking about 48 or 96 kHz being intentionally (or unintentionally) made the only allowed options. So either someone said "we must disallow the other options" or they didn't and it's a bug.

do we ever get apple engineers rolling thru here or on mastodon? wish stuff like this wasn't such a black box behind the scenes.

i think the only time ive ever run into an apple engineer was on mastodon related to gptk it was interesting to see they actually are quite tuned into what is possible on these devices and what that could mean for gaming. despite being a developer toolkit to help studios get a read on the work needed to optimize a game for a metal port, they were expressing that they were well aware such tools showed a lot of promise for getting games going on mac. not much of a gamer myself, but thought it was interesting to see a slice into engineering there & that they weren't as hostile as HN would believe them to be and broadly aligned with many of us. id be mega curious what apple engineers think about asahi.

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#267
post #245
post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, after a while, the effort of maintaining and improving M-series kernel support should be directly be done by kernel maintainers, not within a fork with periodic merges (maybe some Asahi folks should become kernel maintainers). Doing so would enabled mainstream distributions to provide maintainable M-series builds, with all that entails in terms of stability, enabling choice, maintenance or security fixes. The w…

This is... literally exactly what they are doing? Of all of the reverse engineering related Linux efforts (and most corporate Linux efforts), Asahi have been the most methodical and relentless about upstreaming changes into the kernel and all of their upstream intermediaries (freedesktop/Mesa etc.), specifically so it's maintained, even at the detriment of the project velocity and contributor health. Asahi is explici…

I would have been happy if all that happened like 3 years ago.

Now, it's 5 years in, the Asahi effort is losing momentum. Core developers are going on to do other things, significant chunks (3922 commits) are still not merged upstream and no major distribution has an official build.

Sorry, but in my opinion, the project is at risk of becoming a dead and unmaintained branch.

Don't get me wrong, the Asahi team did an incredible job on this bloody difficult endeavor, but now is time to properly merge it and not let it go to waste.

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should give Framework a try. It's been a flawless experience with Fedora. And with the upcoming Framework 13 Pro, battery life and trackpad are expected to be on par (or in the case of battery, even better than macos)

The new Framework 13 Pro is undeniably really nice and a huge step up from the earlier Framework laptops. But the sad reality is that x86 processors are falling behind in performance. The Intel Core Ultra X7 358H is a whopping 35% slower than the M5 Pro (15 CPU 16 GPU) in both single core and multicore benchmarks, while the Framework 13 Pro with the 358H costs about the same as the Macbook Pro 14 with the M5 Pro ($22…

> But the sad reality is that x86 processors are falling behind in performance. The Intel Core Ultra X7 358H is a whopping 35% slower than the M5 Pro

35% is the generational difference between the M4 pro to the M5 pro¹. Don't drink Apple marketing koolaid: this has less to do with x86 falling behind than it has to do with Apple using their stash of gold to outbid the intel/AMD competition out of the latest TSMC capacity.

An M4 Pro 12c gets 32731 out of TSMC's 2nm-E².

An AMD Ryzen AI 9 HX 370 gets 35093 out of TSMC's 4nm³.

The true unsung hero of the "Apple M miracle" is TSMC, not ARM, and Apple mostly in the sense that it has the deepest pockets.

With the first M chips, anyone who could afford to wait 18-24 months was pretty much where Apple was at. This decreased to 12-18 months in the last couple years. Panther lake signifies that it could further decrease to 9-12 months.

¹: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/6346vs6345vs7230vs6397v...

²: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-M4-Pro-12-cores-Processo...

³: https://www.techpowerup.com/cpu-specs/ryzen-ai-9-hx-370.c365...

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#269

I really hope this project continues to gain momentum. Apple Hardware + Linux is the least fscked OS running on the best hardware. MacOS continues to be a tire fire with endless bugs and churn between versions.

I've run all 3 major OSes before. MacOS by far has the least bugs and kinda just works. My variosu Linux adventures have always resulted in doing random patches for audio or screen incompatibility. My windows days were plagued with battery issues. I feel like most Linux ricers wishs for a MacOS-like experience, except with more customisation. (Which is entirely possible now with the ricing on Mac)

> MacOS by far has the least bugs and kinda just works.

MacOS is sometimes so weird and inconsistent that it's hard to tell whether it's a bug of Apple usual's "you are not smart/cool-enough to understand" kind of feature.

Re: Asahi Linux Progress Linux 7.0

#270
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this is a little pedantic, but we're not talking about a default among the many other available options supported by the chip. We're talking about 48 or 96 kHz being intentionally (or unintentionally) made the only allowed options. So either someone said "we must disallow the other options" or they didn't and it's a bug.

do we ever get apple engineers rolling thru here or on mastodon? wish stuff like this wasn't such a black box behind the scenes. i think the only time ive ever run into an apple engineer was on mastodon related to gptk it was interesting to see they actually are quite tuned into what is possible on these devices and what that could mean for gaming. despite being a developer toolkit to help studios get a read on the w…

> do we ever get apple engineers rolling thru here or on mastodon? wish stuff like this wasn't such a black box behind the scenes.

Very rarely. I believe because Apple has a culture of secrecy and contractually forbids employees from sharing details about their work in most circumstances (and actually enforces this).

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