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Help Keep Thunderbird Alive

updates.thunderbird.net

261–270 of 403 posts

Re: Help Keep Thunderbird Alive

#261
post #64
post #38

I really like Thunderbird, it's the only truly cross-platform mail app, with K9 also now on Android. Works perfect, I even migrated my Windows install to Linux just by copying the data folder, absolutely seamless. Not sure why people are hating on it so much here. Point to an alternative with the same features?

people point to the rare bug report that deletes absolutely everything in the account. but at this point, I don't even know if it's true.

I used to maintain a mailbox in dropbox that tended to work across my mac, linux and windows environments... it was pretty great... at some point a few incompatible releases across the environments broke everything and had other bugs that I could no longer revert from. I pretty much haven't touched it in a while.

Re: Help Keep Thunderbird Alive

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gmail can be used from any modern platform through the web and has dedicated Android and iOS apps too.

Gmail has ads inline that are hard to distinguish from real emails. What kind of self-respecting person uses that when they have the technical knowhow to spend time on hackernews (i.e. options)?

People that want shared/server contacts/calendars that actually work.

Re: Help Keep Thunderbird Alive

#263

> We don’t have corporate funding I thought you were owned by Mozilla? A corporation that has over half a billion dollars in yearly revenue? If they decided to allocate zero funding to you, wouldn't it be vastly more effective to start some sort of campaign/movement (either internal or external) to get that funding back, or to entirely fork and leave Mozilla to be your own independent project, than to ask for random…

MZLA is owned by the FOUNDATION.

However, MZLA is self funded.

Re: Help Keep Thunderbird Alive

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all seriousness, it might be good to write up more of the issues that you have for at least a few reasons: 1. TB probably(?) doesn't consider use cases like the one that you described. If there is any hope of them fixing it, it would be best to be underscored in detail. Perhaps then someone can try to propagate some fake test data to try and test against. 2. There's always the chance someone might be willing to fo…

Maybe. I did try (politely, btw!) reporting a couple of issues on their bugtracker a long time ago, but the usual thing happened: nothing at all. IIRC there was no response of any kind. Which makes me reticent to put more time into writing more bug reports for them to ignore. I just found out about betterbird today. It looks interesting. I might give it a try. And if I see the same issues there, maybe I'll report it…

You actually got me thinking about it, because I've been living with a lot of this trash for so long now that I think I've probably forgotten a bunch of my gripes with thunderbird.

So here are the ones that spring to mind when I gave it a little bit of thought. I'm sure there are others that I've forgotten about because I've adopted new workflows that don't involve thunderbird (e.g my calendar is a bit like that, but I remember it because I feel like an email client with a calendar should probably be able to sync with my caldav server, and because of the stupidity of the bug). I'm also sure that as soon as I hit 'post' I'll think of more (edit: this totally happened).

* Searching IMAP folders. Worked just fine in 2010, does nothing now, no matter how long you wait. These days I just grep my maildir, like it's 1975.

* Forgetting the sort order and display preferences for folders. It LOVES to do this after an "upgrade". Because the 300,000 times I've previously told it not to show my 'cron' folder in threaded view isn't enough, apparently. I must want threaded view, but I'm just too stupid to realise it, and if they switch back to threaded view one more time maybe I'll just accept it and learn the new and better way because Mozilla knows best. Ditto for showing folder contents with the newest messages as the top - you know, the default and most useful sorting order for email. Nooooooooooo - thunderbird knows better! It loves to semi-randomly switch folders to "oldest messages at the top".

* Flat-out refusing to talk to certain older email servers because they're serving up SSL certificates using an algo that's old and which mozilla has decided they don't like anymore. What's that? The machine is one that you don't have control over and that's difficult to upgrade due to it being an ancient SunOS machine running software from like 2001, and that you're connecting to over a very secure VPN and which isn't publicly accessible, so it's no security risk at all? Tough shit, use an email client that isn't thunderbird, we're not going to provide a "proceed anyway" button for people who understand what they're doing, because Mozilla knows better than you.

* Hey there! I see you've repeatedly removed the garbage hamburger menu. This must have been an accident and not that you do not want and did not ask for it and will never want it under any circumstances ever due to your strongly-held opinion that a traditional hierarchical menu bar across the top of an application is a superior UI in every way and that hamburger menus are less efficient and have no place on a high-resolution desktop interface. So as part of the latest thunderbird "upgrade", I'm just going to helpfully slip that shitty hamburger menu that you've removed 10,000 times back into the toolbar where I think it should be, so it can waste some screen real-estate for something you'll never use. That should correct that oversight where you accidentally removed it 10,000 times. Glad I could help!

* Hey there! I see you've accidentally removed the shitty hamburger menu for the 50,000th time. I'm going to do you a solid and solve this problem once and for all - by simply making it not optional and not configurable anymore. The top right hand corner of your toolbar WILL be a hamburger menu now and forevermore. That should sort that problem out.

* Hey there! I notice that you like a traditional hierarchical menu bar, like computers have had since the 1980s. Unfortunately this isn't fashionable anymore and isn't great on phones, so what we're going to do on your high-res desktop machine is put a toolbar above the menu bar, creating a completely bizarre interface where the "get messages" button is above the File menu, in condradiction of 35+ years of UI conventions. We're also going to make this something that isn't configurable anymore. Sure, the UI used to be super-configurable for 20+ years, but that wasn't done with javascript, so we had to remove it. You really should just use the hamburger menu instead. We like it, you see, and we're not interested in your opinion if it's not the same as ours. Mozilla knows best, you see.

* I noticed that you don't have thunderbird's adaptive junk mail filter(tm) turned on. This must be an accident and not because you have sophisticated and extremely reliable enterprise-grade spam filtering solution set up on your server, with rules to do things like move email to a specific folder and mark it as read if it's determined to be spam. So what I'm going to do with this latest thunderbird "upgrade" is just silently enable the adaptive junk mail filter(tm), and then let that decide that about 40% of the thousands and thousands of messages in your inbox are junk, and then move them into a completely different and previously-unknown junk folder that you've never seen before. Now you might wonder "hey why has that colleague I was emailling back and forth with gone silent?" and you might check your junk folder to see if maybe your spam filter has gone haywire. But his messages (and a bunch of messages from your boss) won't be there! They'll be in the new and previously-unknown junk folder that I think spam should go into! And you can spend literally hours trying to find the email that's gone missing. As a bonus, we've also made it really difficult to find that missing email by breaking the search feature, and this new junk folder isn't in your maildir structure (or even on your server!), so you can't just grep for it. Have fun!

* OMG ALL YOUR RSS FEEDS ARE BROKEN! I tried to update them twice, and got an error! This must mean that all your RSS feeds coincidentally died at the same time, and is absolutely definitely not because your internet was down for maintenance for a couple of hours. So I'm going to do the only sensible thing - mark all your RSS feeds as broken and just stop ever trying to update them again until you manually tell me to update each and every one individually. No, I will not allow you to multi-select feeds so that you can update them all at once.

* I see that you like extensions. You have several installed and you use them and rely on them daily, and have for 20+ years. So what We're going to do is turn our extensions API into a shifting quagmire of incompatibility, such that extension authors have to jump through hoops every 25 minutes to make sure their extensions are compatible with the latest thunderbird, until most of them just give up. That way we can phase out the whole extensions thing like we did with firefox, giving you an objectively worse experience.

- Did you like your email headers taking up less than 50% of the message area and having the ability to double-click on the header area to toggle between full headers and compact headers? Didn't think so.

- Aah, you want to manually sort the folders in your inbox. Nah, that would be much to useful.

- Ha! A GUI to manage your sieve filters in a user-friendly and intuitive manner? That sounds far too XUL for our tastes! Begone!

(these are just the big-deal extensions that I still miss all the time and can remember off the top of my head, there used to be a BUNCH of others, too, that I used less frequently and would struggle to remember)

* What's that? You think that interfaces should get faster as computers increase in power? Oh, my sweet summer child, have you not heard the tale of Javascript and the melting CPU? No, see, we needed to disable all those xul extensions because it was bogging us down and making things inefficient! And what we're going to do is replace that with javascript trash, so that it's a whole new level of slow and unresponsive. Did you notice how I mentioned that parsing the calendar brings the whole of thunderbird to a grinding halt, making it totally unresponsive and unusable? Yeah, see that's because all this new code is very well-engineered and async / multithreaded, you see - it can fully utilise the power of a modern processor to do much much less in much much more time.

* I can't start thunderbird maximised. Haven't been able to for a few "upgrades" now. If thunderbird is in the maximised state when I close it, when I re-open it, it starts in the maximised state, and just gives me an empty window frame which it never draws anything in. To work around this, I have to: unmaximise, then close the window, then re-launch thunderbird, then once it launches normally I can maximise it and it will work. But I just don't bother maximising it these days, because that means I have to do the unmaximise/close/relaunch thing every time I start it. Instead these days I just leave thunderbird in an unmaximised state that's almost as big as it would be if it were maximised. Hilarious incompetence.

I told you it'd be vitriol ;)

Re: Help Keep Thunderbird Alive

#265
post #226

> MZLA Technologies Corporation is a wholly owned for-profit subsidiary of the Mozilla Foundation and the home of Thunderbird. I guess I don't understand why the open-source email client with zero revenue potential is managed by a for-profit subsidiary, nor why that for-profit subsidiary is begging for donations. Shouldn't this whole thing be managed by the non-profit Mozilla Foundation?

Basically the IRS is highly skeptical of the idea that free software development fits the legal definition of a 501(c)(3), and tends to reject such applications [1][2]. That is why Mozilla Foundation cannot use donations for Firefox development, and instead uses them for activism. So that creates the strange situation where legally it is easier for free software developers to accept donations as a for-profit corporat…

@pavon, spot on.

Re: Help Keep Thunderbird Alive

#266

I wish Thunderbird fix their plain text editor (it is at level of old Notepad, and chrome for it looks ugly, and line wrapping is a mess, especially with in-line quotation), add ability to store Folder properties (including Identity used for this folder, retention period and such) as IMAP properties and not locally to have same settings on different devices. And, yes, proper support for Sieve, including per-folder Si…

The breaking changes, broken extensions and other bugs stopped me from using it altogether... I still have it on my phone (that version is based on K9 though), but long ago stopped using the shared dropbox profile. The profile rolled forward a version and I could no longer revert to an older version because of bugs in the app itself.

I used to love Thunderbird... I also used it a lot with BBS centric NNTP hosts... at some point those features largely broke as well, and extensions to correct the behavior fell farther and farther behind as well.

The lack of a good calendar/contacts server solution is also a massive pain point imo.

Re: Help Keep Thunderbird Alive

#267

> MZLA Technologies Corporation is a wholly owned for-profit subsidiary of the Mozilla Foundation and the home of Thunderbird. I guess I don't understand why the open-source email client with zero revenue potential is managed by a for-profit subsidiary, nor why that for-profit subsidiary is begging for donations. Shouldn't this whole thing be managed by the non-profit Mozilla Foundation?

They could EASILY have had and still could have a companion service for free/hosted email/calendar/contacts. It could even have an open implementation for "open-source" private hosting. Could be a great alternative to the enshittified Outlook/M365 even. Could pretty readily undercut alternatives and still be profitable.

At least as a point of funding the open-source work.

Re: Help Keep Thunderbird Alive

#268
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The defining difference about paying money to a corporation in exchange for a product is you're paying for something already there, an agreed exchange of value. The whole point about a donation is it's given not in exchange for doing any particular task, but gratuitously. It's not a weird sentiment to want to know what benefits a gift is providing. That's all people are asking for when they want transparency around d…

> It's not a weird sentiment to want to know what benefits a gift is providing. "I bought you tickets for your favorite artist for your birthday. I expect a detailed trip report" :) Yes, you're right, personal gifts aren't donations, but then maybe we should stop calling donations gifts, too. Gifts are given without any expectations attached. Donations do and should have expectations.

Nobody rationally expects a detailed trip report in exchange for some tickets.

But nobody wants to hear that they gave those tickets to their pimp, either.

Re: Help Keep Thunderbird Alive

#269
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla is so sad. They have a lot of money and they could fund the development of both Firefox and Thunderbird. Yet, they decide to waste almost $7 million per year to pay a CEO and God knows what else.

Here we go again. I don't love the CEO pay but it's like 1% of their annual revenue and typical for positions like that, and Mozilla constantly suffers from these kinds of double sided, quantum accusations. Depending on which random HN thread you're in, the accusation is that (a) they're running out of money and urgently need to innovate to grow their revenue streams but also (b) they've got so much money and their s…

>and typical for positions like that

That's the problem. CEOs get paid so much more than everyone else while typically not providing value commensurate with their pay.

Re: Help Keep Thunderbird Alive

#270
post #3

I wish I could use Thunderbird at work now that it has Exchange support . Unfortunately we're mandated to use Microsoft Outlook. Outlook feels like it has completely been forgotten by Microsoft. I don't recall the last time they updated anything meaningful in the product (at least on macOS), it's quite a mess of a product. Wishing Thunderbird all the best it's the competition we need.

The online university I'm attending has something similar set up where third party Exchange client support is disabled, making official Outlook client usage non-optional.

It's very frustrating and I can't think of a valid reason to configure things this way.

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