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Some things just take time

lucumr.pocoo.org

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Re: Some things just take time

#261

Post by smj-edison »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #245
smj-edison wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't know, whatever VS Code's bot uses The reason I ask about what model is I initially dismissed AI generated code because I was not impressed with the models I was trying. I decided if I was going to evaluate it fairly though, I would need to try a paid product. I ended up using Claude Sonnet 4.5, which is much better than the quick-n-cheap models. I still don't use Claude for large stuff, but it's pretty good a…

>I decided if I was going to evaluate it fairly though, I would need to try a paid product. Okay. Get me a job and I'll pay for any model of your choosing. Until then, finances are very slim.

> Get me a job

Heh, I'm a college student, so I can't help with that...

You could also try Gemini 3 pro with Gemini's CLI which is free, though it's not as good at using tools. But, it sounds like you're not interested, which is fine!

Just please don't continue to argue with finer points if you're not interested. I've done my best to engage with your points, but I get the sense that it doesn't matter what I say.

I am curious though, why do you feel so strongly about LLM products?

Re: Some things just take time

#262

Post by socketcluster »

TurdF3rguson wrote: post #190
socketcluster wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I built it up in parts and brought the parts together over time. SocketCluster has over 6k stars on GitHub. https://github.com/socketCluster/socketcluster Saasufy itself isn't open source. I'm planning to sell licenses of the code (a limited number of them to make it scarce). SocketCluster is a core component of Saasufy. The goal did evolve slightly; originally, it was to make it easier to build full stack applicatio…

That makes more sense but I don't see what pub/sub has to do with a no-code full-stack framework. Other than that some of them might want a chat widget?

It's real-time by default. Done in a cheap (and efficient) way. The views update automatically when relevant data changes, no possibility of overriding conflicts when editing concurrently. Changes are only distributed to users/clients who are looking at the affected data.

It's not just for chat. Anytime people update data collaboratively, for any data-driven software, you run into issues of people overwriting each other's changes... Sadly users got really used to poor experiences like having to 'refresh the page', or 'locking down resources' during edits to avoid concurrent editing altogether.

It's been kind of disturbing for me to realize how few people care about data integrity in collaborative scenarios. It's a kind of hidden issue which can cause major problems but users tend to tolerate. I've had this experience first-hand with colleagues using various other platforms where someone else had the same resource open for a while in the browser, we updated different fields and my field was overwritten with its old value but we didn't realise for some time until it caused a bug with one of the workflows. Then it was like "I'm sure I updated that value."

SC's pub/sub channels are part of the secret sauce to make this work. SocketCluster makes some unique tradeoffs with its pub/sub mechanism; the channels are extremely cheap to create and are cleaned up automatically (and cheaply)... And at any scale with sharding. This was an intentional design decision which is different from message queues like Kafka and RabbitMQ which prioritise throughput and are typically used in the backend as opposed to being end-to-end.

Re: Some things just take time

#263

Post by Yokohiii »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #136

I find myself sympathetic to the author's PoV, but I am incorporating LLMs into my workflow, with a resultant jaw-dropping (to me) increase in velocity. But I am not just dispatching to agents. I work interactively with a chat interface, and sometimes, I will just bin a whole hour's worth of back-and-forth, because we're not getting anywhere (in fact, I did exactly that, about 30 minutes ago). But that hour is peanut…

I think that is the exact friction with the original post title.

For an experienced coder, writing code is never the problem. Some tasks are more raw writing effort then others, sure. The problem is understanding the problem, the task, the constraints and how to express them correctly, in a way that suits your environment (i.e. company, ecosystem, platform).

My brain is the actual problem, how fast I can digest information and make sense of it. For me, this is the process that always consumes the most time.

Last week I've wasted a full day, just because I didn't had a decent overview of what I was working on. It was heavily LLM chatbot assisted, at no point in time the LLM nudged me into the right direction, mainly because I was confidently asking the wrong questions.

No AI will help you if you insist being dumb, but it will accelerate you in that regard. That at least works for me.

Re: Some things just take time

#264

Post by timacles »

imtringued wrote: post #222
ErroneousBosh wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> GD92 packets? No idea what you’re talking about but if it has a spec then it doesn’t matter if it’s trained on it. Okay, so you're running into the same problem that LLMs are. > Break the problem down into small enough chunks. Give it examples of expected input and output then any llm can reason about it. So I have to do lots of grunt work? > You’re describing a basic tcp exchange, learn more about the domain and h…

>Okay, so you're running into the same problem that LLMs are. I can't tell if you are a troll or not, but you can't complain that nobody understands your intentionally vague and obtuse way to describe the problem at hand to pretend you're superior. https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/NoticeDownload/Do... You have to rename the file ending to PDF. It's probably the wrong spec, because I'm basing this research o…

Hes not a troll, hes just trying way too hard to prove a point that half the people here can see is nonsense.

Its not worth engaging a guy who is adversarial to learning how a tool works, just so he can maintain some air of superiority for his ego.

Re: Some things just take time

#265

Post by timacles »

smj-edison wrote: post #173
timacles wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed was a bit rough. Yes they are not great at iterating and keeping long contexts, but you look at what he’s describing and you have to agree that’s exactly the type of problem llm excel at Shouldn’t have to baby step through the basics when the author is clearly not interested in learning himself

> Shouldn’t have to baby step through the basics when the author is clearly not interested in learning himself I'd rather assume good faith, because when I first started using LLMs I was incredibly confused what was going on, and all the tutorials were grating on me because the people making the tutorials were clearly overhyping it. It was precisely the measured and detailed HN comments that I read that convinced me…

I totally agree, and myself have gone through that cycle.

But the guy is being adversarial and antagonistic. Its a 2 way street, sometimes you have to call people out on their BS because I'm not seeing someone argue in good faith, but rather pretending some superior knowledge because hes working on a esoteric protocol like people here don't know how packet headers work

Re: Some things just take time

#266

Post by smj-edison »

timacles wrote: post #265
smj-edison wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shouldn’t have to baby step through the basics when the author is clearly not interested in learning himself I'd rather assume good faith, because when I first started using LLMs I was incredibly confused what was going on, and all the tutorials were grating on me because the people making the tutorials were clearly overhyping it. It was precisely the measured and detailed HN comments that I read that convinced me…

I totally agree, and myself have gone through that cycle. But the guy is being adversarial and antagonistic. Its a 2 way street, sometimes you have to call people out on their BS because I'm not seeing someone argue in good faith, but rather pretending some superior knowledge because hes working on a esoteric protocol like people here don't know how packet headers work

I don't read it as superiority, perhaps bitterness would be the closest word to what I'm reading.

> sometimes you have to call people out on their BS

That's true, but I think that it's often much later than what some people would consider enough. Someone can be bitter, and still have good points. It's very dangerous to preemptively dismiss points, because it means that I won't listen to anyone who disagrees with me. I'm willing to put in the work to interpret someone's response in a productive light because there's often something to find.

There's a framework that I work within when I'm in a discussion. There's three elements: arguments, values, and assumptions. An argument is the face value statements. But those statements come from the values and assumptions of the person.

Values are what people consider most important. In most cases, our values are the same, which is good!

The biggest difference is assumptions. For example, one assumption I have is that free markets are the best method we have to lift individuals out of poverty. This colors how I talk about AI. Another person might assume that free markets have failed, and we need to use a different approach. This colors how they would view AI. So we'll completely talk past each other when arguing AI, because it's more of a proxy war of our assumptions.

Re: Some things just take time

#268

Post by jFriedensreich »

users also dont have time to find and report bugs until the next release and also get even more desensitized to things being broken so will report less likely, or just clone and fix something only for themselves because issues and prs are more work. contributions are also harder because main is already dramatically different by the time your features are ready. ai also does not care for mergeabilty of changes. as a user i start to git clone everything not just because i can fix bugs myself but also because i dont get projects update schedule forced on.

Re: Some things just take time

#269

Post by sifar »

jstummbillig wrote: post #201
Chris_Newton wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speed actually just wins, because we are usually constrained by time. Sorry, but I don’t understand what you mean here. What do we win by being faster at producing the wrong things?

You learn more quickly that you are producing the wrong thing.

Do you ? It takes a some introspection. People can be in denial despite the feedback from reality.

Re: Some things just take time

#270

Post by js8 »

bluGill wrote: post #258
js8 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't wait for feedback from "real users", become a user! This tayloristic idea (which has now reincarnated in "design thinking") that you can observe someone doing a job and then decide better than them what they need is ridiculous and should die. Good products are built by the people who use the thing themselves. Doesn't mean though that choosing good features (product design and engineering) isn't a skill in itsel…

Too often that isn't possible. There is a lot of domain knowledge in making a widget there is a lot of domain knowledge in doing a job. when e complex job needs a complex widget often there isn't enough overlap to be experts in both. sure 'everyone' drives so you can be a domain expert in cars. However not everyone can be an astronaught - rockets are complex enough to need more people than astronaughts and so most pe…

I am not asking anybody to be an expert in both (although I am sure such people exist, however rare); I am saying people should ideally have some skill in both. Also, people can collaborate, and learn new skills.

If you're bottle-necked by waiting for the users of your product to give a feedback, you clearly need to spend more time learning how to be a user yourself. Or hire people with some domain skill who can also code.

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