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Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

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Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#261

In these experiments the neurons don't know they are firing a gun and chasing demons. The task is to produce outputs (movement) to centre an input and then produce an output (shoot). Then the cycle repeats. Typically the input it receives is increasingly regular as it does better. And irregular to mark a failure which the neurons learn to avoid. It has no idea that the data can also be rendered as a Doom game.

Does that mean human brains have neuron "training" feedback?

There's a few theories.

Most fundamentally come down to the neurones connections and behaviour can be modelled as minimizing prediction error in their stimulus.

Dopamine encoding an outcome compared to a baseline expectation is very close to tempeoal difference learning.

This is basically what slot machines exploit with their variable reward schemes.

Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#262
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, after the fact; that is after my response they provided a definition. > the person you're responding to shared the definition they are using No, technically they didn't. They provided a definition, they didn't say it was the one they are using here. If it's not pedantic tangent, it seem correct to assume that is the definition they are using, but that's what "Implying" means, so I trying to explicitly get a clar…

Yes. They provided their definition in response to your (mis?)reading of their original words. They are not the party bringing bad faith to this conversation.

Oh? And who is? provide receipts please.

Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#264
post #163
post #102

If this can be taken at face value... it's creepy. I get that they're doing it for the meme. But perhaps something getting close to human intelligence, made out of human cells, shouldn't be forced to play a violent video game without any alternative options? Does 'the meme' justify that? I dunno. Nothing against violent games myself. Just feels like it's starting to get quite questionable, ethically speaking.

Would it be able to distinguish between violent or not? Would it be suffering or not? What exactly does it get in terms of signals? Does it even, "experience" anything? Is it even an "it"?

Your "violent or not" point is really interesting. Without a world model that includes a model of violence, whether that's instinctual or learned, it would not distinguish DOOM and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chex_Quest

Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#265
Cortical Labs CTO here. My focus is on the system itself rather than applications, but for what it's worth ..

When the neurons didn't get stimulated by the application, performance did not improve. The only explanation our data science people has is that the neurons began to learn and perform the desired (highly abstracted) task of 'playing Doom'. This was not a surprise as we've shown this before with a version of Pong using a different platform. We built the CL1 and the CL API to enable rapid iteration on this sort of work.

One benefit to this is that when you have a measurable learning effect, you can measure this before and after exposure to an experimental drug or other molecule. It becomes possible to test the impact on neuron function, not just survival.

Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#266
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not aware of any plants that show signs of consciousness or feelings. This would even by disadvantageous to many plants because they "want" parts of them to be eaten to disperse seeds, pollen, etc. Even if you accept that plants might be conscious and their suffering has to be reduced, you would still harm way fewer plants by eating them directly instead of eating other animals that consume them. https://en.wiki…

Perhaps you are not looking that closely? Plants have memory and demonstrate directed action through time and space. They can respond to touch, light, sound, and chemical signalling from other plants, insects, and fungi. What are the fingerprints of consciousness and feelings that you are looking for?

arguing on hn

Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, people get shot/stabbed/"fall off a building by accident" every day and we should be considerate of the feelings of a petri dish.

This is the "There are starving children in Africa, eat your greens" argument. Are discussion about petri dishes diverting relevant resources away from building safety initiatives? Can I be allowed to torture small animals so long as human suffering persists?

[deleted]

Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#268
post #265

Cortical Labs CTO here. My focus is on the system itself rather than applications, but for what it's worth .. When the neurons didn't get stimulated by the application, performance did not improve. The only explanation our data science people has is that the neurons began to learn and perform the desired (highly abstracted) task of 'playing Doom'. This was not a surprise as we've shown this before with a version of P…

It was a great video. You're doing interesting work.

I've also seen implementations of realistic neurons, spiking models, etc. In software implementations, what combo of libraries and hardware would equal your 200,000 biological neurons in performance (esp training)? How many GPU's are we talking about?

(Note: If you haven't already, it might be helpful to publish a stack like that so people can experiment with encodings or reinforcement methods at no cost to you.)

Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#269
post #265

Cortical Labs CTO here. My focus is on the system itself rather than applications, but for what it's worth .. When the neurons didn't get stimulated by the application, performance did not improve. The only explanation our data science people has is that the neurons began to learn and perform the desired (highly abstracted) task of 'playing Doom'. This was not a surprise as we've shown this before with a version of P…

It was a great video. You're doing interesting work. I've also seen implementations of realistic neurons, spiking models, etc. In software implementations, what combo of libraries and hardware would equal your 200,000 biological neurons in performance (esp training)? How many GPU's are we talking about? (Note: If you haven't already, it might be helpful to publish a stack like that so people can experiment with encod…

Thanks!

We focus on using real neurons, I'm not aware of a software based equivalent. But users can `pip install cl-sdk` to get started with our API. The SDK is still early but supports playing back a recording of real data so applications can be built with a realistic spike frequency. (We'll be releasing a set of recordings for this)

Re: Living human brain cells play DOOM on a CL1 [video]

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it rhetoric? This goes beyond whatever malignant thing was perceived in this study, but why is it a rhetorical non-answer? You seem hung-up on my using the word rhetoric. Just so we’re on the same page here: > rhetoric, n : the art of speaking or writing effectively: b)the study of writing or speaking as a means of communication or persuasion The business writing class I took in college was called Business R…

> It’s not a bad word. When used in the negative sense it is, per https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rhetoric "disapproving -> clever language that sounds good but is not sincere or has no real meaning" Are you implying you mean something other than this sense of the word?

Calling your criticism a stretch would be far too charitable. I made it clear what I meant and I’ve got better things to do than nitpick over semantics.
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