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New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

marginalia.nu

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Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#261

Post by epistasis »

d4mi3n wrote: post #50

I'm still salty that I can't use em-dashes anymore for fear of my writing being flagged as AI generated. Been using them for years—it's just `alt+shift+-` on a Mac keyboard and I find them more legible in many fonts compared to the simple dash on the typical numpad. It's so sad to me that good typographical conventions have been co-opted by the zeitgeist of LLMs.

My thoughts exactly. As somebody who has always loved to use em-dashes and bulleted lists to organize my thoughts, this is heartbreaking.

It's like being named Michael Bolton and watching a singer rise in fame named Michael Bolton.

Why should I change my style?

Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#262

Post by randusername »

relaxing wrote: post #116
a4isms wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for GitHub for a time. There was a cultural abhorrence of the diaeresis, it was considered reader-hostile and elitist. I refused to coöperate with that edict internally, although I grant that every company has the right to micro-manage communications with the public.

It is reader hostile and elitist. Is there any good argument in favor of it, or any other house style quirks for that matter, other than in-group signaling?

It exists to indicate how a word is pronounced. Naïve is a better example IMO, cooperation feels too familiar.

Non-native speakers might see something like "nave" instead of "nigh-eve" unless it is clear that there is a stress that breaks out of the diphthong.

I don't think style guides are (usually) about absolute correctness, but relative correctness. A question is asked, a decision needs making, someone makes it, and now a team of individuals can speak with a consistent voice because there's a guideline to minimize variation.

Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#263

Post by jug »

d4mi3n wrote: post #50

I'm still salty that I can't use em-dashes anymore for fear of my writing being flagged as AI generated. Been using them for years—it's just `alt+shift+-` on a Mac keyboard and I find them more legible in many fonts compared to the simple dash on the typical numpad. It's so sad to me that good typographical conventions have been co-opted by the zeitgeist of LLMs.

I switched to semicolons... They look similar enough in use to string things together. I'm sure AI is coming for those too though, and that will be a grim day because those are my last stand.

Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#264

Post by burnt-resistor »

dang wrote: post #126
d4mi3n wrote: post #50

I'm still salty that I can't use em-dashes anymore for fear of my writing being flagged as AI generated. Been using them for years—it's just `alt+shift+-` on a Mac keyboard and I find them more legible in many fonts compared to the simple dash on the typical numpad. It's so sad to me that good typographical conventions have been co-opted by the zeitgeist of LLMs.

Just do it anyway—I always have, and always will. Well, I haven't always —just for maybe 20 years.

;)

I defer to Merriam-Webster and/or Harbrace (rather than TCMoS) on punctuation usage.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/em-dash-en-dash-how-...

Magical signal panacea searching is ultimately fruitless. Other ways to make bot interactions more difficult, there are policy and technological obstacles that could be introduced. For example, require an official desktop or mobile app for interaction. And then for any text copy-pasted, demarcate it. And throw an error message for any input typed inhumanly-fast. Require a micropayment of like $0.10 to comment. While these things would break the interaction style and flexibility for a lot of innocent human users, these would throw big wrenches into some but not all vulnerabilities of bot interactions.

Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#265

Post by 3rodents »

Lerc wrote: post #234
stronglikedan wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

great repo name!

It's worth remembering that you can argue that the use of the word is acceptable now, but can you guarantee that in 30 years time the future world will agree with you to the extent that they let you hold a position of responsibility after using the word 30 years ago. There is precedent here.

The reason we look harshly on past word usage is because of what it represents. The use of slurs 30 years ago isn’t a problem because of the word but because it suggests an association with a specific behavior.

If you look back to the 90s and see someone using a racist slur, you fill in the gaps and assume they were using it because they were racist.

Will people in 30 years look back to today and judge those who showed disdain for people who rely on AI to write for them?

Even if clanker becomes a no-no word 30 years from now, it seems beyond the realm of possibility that people who hated clankers in 2026 will be looked upon harshly. Clankers aren’t a marginalized group today, they aren’t a class that needs protection.

What words are you thinking of when you say that there is precedent?

Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#266

Post by giraffe_lady »

jatins wrote: post #243

The part that doesn't make sense to me is: Why? As in what are the incentives to use AI to write comments on HN? This is not a platform like Youtube or X where views get you money. Is this just for internet karma?

I know on reddit since basically the very beginning there has been a market for accounts with authentic but anodyne histories. It ends up being easier to make them yourself and then just occasionally use them for whatever guerilla marketing, astroturf campaign, or propaganda operation is your actual goal. But still until recently you pretty much had to pay people to sit and post on social media on a bunch of accounts to generate these histories.

This use was one of the first things that occurred to me when LLMs started getting genuinely good at summarizing texts and conversations. And I assume a fair bit of this has always happened on HN too. I've never moderated here obviously so I have no first hand insight but the social conventions here are uniquely ripe for it and it has a disproportionate influence on society through the dominance of the tech industry, making it a good target.

Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#267

Post by saalweachter »

wavemode wrote: post #186
marginalia_nu wrote: post #157

Fwiw I did some more comparisons, looking for words disproportionately favored by noob comments: word noob new p-value ---------------------------- ai 14.93% 7.87% p=0.00016 actually 12.53% 5.34% p=1.1e-05 code 11.47% 6.04% p=0.00081 real 10.93% 2.95% p=2.6e-08 built 10.93% 2.11% p=2.1e-10 data 8.93% 3.51% p=6.1e-05 tools 7.6% 2.67% p=5.5e-05 agent 7.47% 2.95% p=0.00024 app 7.2% 3.09% p=0.00078 tool 6.8% 1.83% p=8.5e…

It's funny - some months ago I noticed that I use the word "actually" lot, and started trying to curb it from my writing. Not for any AI-related reason, but because it is almost always a meaningless filler word, and I find that being concise helps get my points across more clearly. e.g. "The body of the template is parsed, but not actually type-checked until the template is used." -> "but not typechecked until the te…

I find various verbal tics come and go in my speech and writing over time.

Lately "I mean" has been jumping out at me.

It really only bothers me when I notice I've used it for multiple comments in the same thread or, worse, multiple times in the same comment.

Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#268

Post by overfeed »

izucken wrote: post #217
marginalia_nu wrote: post #157

Fwiw I did some more comparisons, looking for words disproportionately favored by noob comments: word noob new p-value ---------------------------- ai 14.93% 7.87% p=0.00016 actually 12.53% 5.34% p=1.1e-05 code 11.47% 6.04% p=0.00081 real 10.93% 2.95% p=2.6e-08 built 10.93% 2.11% p=2.1e-10 data 8.93% 3.51% p=6.1e-05 tools 7.6% 2.67% p=5.5e-05 agent 7.47% 2.95% p=0.00024 app 7.2% 3.09% p=0.00078 tool 6.8% 1.83% p=8.5e…

You've built an interesting statistic from gathering data across the project. The real answer: ai models and agentic apps make building spam tools more simple than ever. All you actually need is just some trivial api automation code.

I bet every single AI-startup dude who does it thinks they've stumbled on a brilliant, original, gold-mine of an idea to use AI to shill their product/service on internet forums, or to astroturf against "AI Haters".

Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#269

Post by CamperBob2 »

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #231
wavemode wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny - some months ago I noticed that I use the word "actually" lot, and started trying to curb it from my writing. Not for any AI-related reason, but because it is almost always a meaningless filler word, and I find that being concise helps get my points across more clearly. e.g. "The body of the template is parsed, but not actually type-checked until the template is used." -> "but not typechecked until the te…

I try to curb my usage of 'actually' too. Like you I came to think of it as an indirect, fluffy discourse marker that should be replaced with more direct language. I'm totally fine with the word itself, but not with overuse of it or placing it where it clearly doesn't belong. And I did that a lot, I think. I suspect if you reviewed my HN comments, it's littered with 'actually' a ton. Also "I think...", "I feel like..…

Like, no kidding I think the thing I'm expressing. Why state that?

One reason might be to acknowledge that you're not being prescriptive, but leaving room for a subjective POV in situations that call for it.

Likewise, the GP's use of "actually" acknowledges the contrast between what one might expect (that some preliminary type-checking might happen during initial parsing) and what in fact happens (no type checks occur until the template is used.) It doesn't seem out of line in that case.

Re: New accounts on HN more likely to use em-dashes

#270

Post by akramachamarei »

relaxing wrote: post #116
a4isms wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for GitHub for a time. There was a cultural abhorrence of the diaeresis, it was considered reader-hostile and elitist. I refused to coöperate with that edict internally, although I grant that every company has the right to micro-manage communications with the public.

It is reader hostile and elitist. Is there any good argument in favor of it, or any other house style quirks for that matter, other than in-group signaling?

IIRC it's use is to distinguish vowels that belong to separate syllables with vowels which form a diphthong. I think this could be beneficial to language learners, to give them a hint that cooperate is pronounced "ko ah puh rayt" instead of "ku puh rayt", and likewise naïve as "nah eev" than "nayv" or "nighv".
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