Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

governance.fyi

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 488 posts

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#261

Post by Grimburger »

ggm wrote: post #238
InkCanon wrote: post #12

Singapore's economic policies are complicated and often misdirecting. I'll break down the misconceptions. The primary purpose of CPF is not a pension scheme. It is structured as a massive forced bond purchase scheme by citizens. Financially what happens is the 37% of citizen income buys a long term bond (till retirement age, on average decades) at rock bottom interest rates (it's pegged to the overnight rate or a min…

Like Dubai, many of the migrant workers are ineligible for post retirement life in Singapore and so despite any mandatory savings will not represent any kind of burden on the state compared to delivery of health and housing and care costs. So they are functionally productive and net positive to any scheme about post work funding for the community.

This is being entirely disingenuous and is completely different to what goes on in Dubai.

I have lived there and can rattle off plenty of criticisms about the country but complaining about migrant workers who clamour to work in SG is not one of them.

The vast majority of Singapore migrant workforce are Malaysian citizens who live over the border in JB, you can rent a 2 bed apartment there for $300 a month and eat out in a restaurant for $2 while commuting each day to a developed country and earn those level of wages.

To pretend these people have a rough deal compared to back home is absurd and I'd challenge anyone to actually talk to them first before getting on your high horse. Ask them if they would prefer to work in their home country.

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#262

Post by TheAlchemist »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #237
mark_l_watson wrote: post #21

I had the privilege of getting a working gig in Singapore for a small AI startup: such a well run country! There is a sense of community for helping by employing people who need jobs, the police were friendly and I felt very safe there (I like to take long walks either early in the morning or late at night and I felt very secure.) Amazing what the people and government have achieved since the end of WW2. 100% respect…

I worked with a guy from sg. He gave me tips for when I went to visit. He hooked me up with a family member that showed me the backend a bit. The country effectively runs on a slave class. You must drive a new vehicle under 5 years old, and the license just to buy a car was $90,000 or so. This means an entire class of people that will be taking the bus to do your laundry and clean your house for the rest of their liv…

Exactly this.

The country's progress and management is extremely good, however it's enabled mostly by exploitation of migrant workers and various kind of white collar crimes (ie, facilitating business for illegal or sanctionned entities - cf Nvidia chips for China for example)

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#263

Post by heathrow83829 »

glimshe wrote: post #151
mech998877 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

90%+ chance the person you are replying to has health insurance that will cover them in case of medical disaster.

I absolutely have health insurance, the most expensive available on my state. That doesn't protect me 100%, but what health insurance (including the ones available at most companies) does? People who have poor money management skills believe that FIRE=Ramen and no health insurance... In fact, it's about getting a 30K car (the one I bought new 3 years ago) instead a 70K car despite having the money.

i think you can get a pretty decent prius from 5k to 10k and a fantastic nearly brand new tesla model 3 for 17K. That's what i did. it was 8 years old, practically brand new, FSD prepaid included! it drives me to work and i only paid 17K for it!

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#264

Post by solarisos »

The 'saving' vs. 'investing' debate here has a direct parallel in technical debt. Singapore’s model of high-efficiency reinvestment is like a well-refactored codebase—it allows for rapid pivots when a shock hits. America’s model feels more like a legacy system with massive technical debt; the 'savings' are there, but the friction of the existing infrastructure makes it nearly impossible to deploy them effectively during a crisis.

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#265

Post by heathrow83829 »

bjourne wrote: post #139
glimshe wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FIRE community and my own personal situation prove you very, very wrong. It's absolutely possible for a upper middle class family to retire in their 50s, even in their 40s, if they live frugally.

Statistics! Can a person below the median income afford to retire early? The answer is a resounding no. Can a person the top 10th percentile (upper middle class) afford to retire early? Yes.

there are still tribes in the amazon that have very little money, like the hazda. they may not call it retirement but they don't need to go to the office everyday.

Serious question, what makes us so addicted and dependent to money that we can't imagine any way of life without a lot of it?

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#266

Post by ggm »

Grimburger wrote: post #261
ggm wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like Dubai, many of the migrant workers are ineligible for post retirement life in Singapore and so despite any mandatory savings will not represent any kind of burden on the state compared to delivery of health and housing and care costs. So they are functionally productive and net positive to any scheme about post work funding for the community.

This is being entirely disingenuous and is completely different to what goes on in Dubai. I have lived there and can rattle off plenty of criticisms about the country but complaining about migrant workers who clamour to work in SG is not one of them. The vast majority of Singapore migrant workforce are Malaysian citizens who live over the border in JB, you can rent a 2 bed apartment there for $300 a month and eat out…

I said nothing of the kind you imply. I know skilled workers who were based in Dubai but who expected to leave immediately their work (court transcription) ended and the same with expat Australians and Britons working in Singapore.

The point is not if they get a rough deal or not compared to their home income. The point is that the welfare state costs on the tax base won't be spent to their material benefit, so they are not a cost on the state after working lifetime. Forced saving schemes be they state pension, annuity or superannuation are savings which act as investment capital and i am sure sematek and other bodies leverage this, and then in income phase return to the holder but they are not equal to the lifetime cost of care for the elderly, or provision of housing.

Dubai has much more extreme exploitation of low wage migrant labour, not that none of the workforce in Singapore is remittance labour, filipina nannies and the like but I'm not actually talking about construction site labour or the Dubai passport hijack thing.

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#267

Post by twoodfin »

danans wrote: post #111
everforward wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it sounds like a tax structured in a strange way so it doesn't obviously read as a tax. It's essentially a forced loan to the government at subpar rates. The "tax" is the delta between what the government pays out for the bonds vs what a bond of equivalent risk in the free market would have paid. The magnitude of the investment also probably makes it impractical for anyone but the very wealthy to retire before…

> The "tax" is the delta between what the government pays out for the bonds vs what a bond of equivalent risk in the free market would have paid. It also robs the individual's freedom to gamble with their retirement funds while expecting/demanding a bailout when shit hits the fan. In the USA we have thoughtful policies that allow people over a certain amount of wealth invested in key industries to do that.

The vast bulk of this “freedom” is exercised by public and union pension funds, not individuals.

e.g. https://apnews.com/article/biden-business-united-states-gove...

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#268

Post by mothballed »

raw_anon_1111 wrote: post #198
mothballed wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

600k once in 40 years is cheap compared to the total cost of insurance, especially when you consider the compound interest you could have made on premiums not paid, plus with the freedom to get cancer care cheaper someplace privately outside the US. Your insurance company got the last laugh by a long shot. A typical family on insurance would pay $600,000 (between their take-home and the reduced wages paid by employer…

Are you really suggesting that a family should not have insurance at all and save the money? I have been working for 30 years and have never once paid more than $10K a year for insurance across 10 jobs 15 of those years were a family plan. Hell one of those jobs was with Amazon - the company with the shittiest benefit package in all of BigTech and even then I only $12K with a family plan. Right now we pay around $10K…

You've likely paid at least $18k if not more like $25k for that insurance in the form of wage income moved to benefit income. The government's tax and regulatory environment post WWII just ensures that unless you choose to take it as 1099 income, your potential 1099 income gets reflected in reduced W2 wages that are paid out in benefits.

You might claim that if your employer didn't offer that benefit they'd just pay nothing, but required health benefits function much as payroll taxes which economists have showed are largely reflected in the form of reduced incomes. That is, you are paying it ~all one way or another.

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#269

Post by janpeuker »

InkCanon wrote: post #12

Singapore's economic policies are complicated and often misdirecting. I'll break down the misconceptions. The primary purpose of CPF is not a pension scheme. It is structured as a massive forced bond purchase scheme by citizens. Financially what happens is the 37% of citizen income buys a long term bond (till retirement age, on average decades) at rock bottom interest rates (it's pegged to the overnight rate or a min…

I think it's also relevant that CPF is not only a pension schema but most importantly also a home ownership scheme via HDB OA https://www.cpf.gov.sg/member/home-ownership/using-your-cpf-...

Re: America vs. Singapore: You can't save your way out of economic shocks

#270

Post by SV_BubbleTime »

FredFS456 wrote: post #248
SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked with a guy from sg. He gave me tips for when I went to visit. He hooked me up with a family member that showed me the backend a bit. The country effectively runs on a slave class. You must drive a new vehicle under 5 years old, and the license just to buy a car was $90,000 or so. This means an entire class of people that will be taking the bus to do your laundry and clean your house for the rest of their liv…

I agree with you that the migrant workers are effectively a serf class. However, I think it's fine that the SG government severely discourages owning a car. It's a small island with lots of people, there would be gridlock if everyone wanted their own car. The public transportation system is amazing and works well.

I promise you do not need to explain scarcity to me :) the issue is that the disparity between I can’t afford a car, and I will never be able to afford a car is vast.

The slave class exist to do nothing but serve (be on the street at 2300, it’s poor people running power washers everywhere you go).

The entire country runs on Chinese goods in shipping containers going to the US. It’s a tax state.

Don’t get me wrong, unique place, I loved it. But ya, not what it seems, lah.

Post reply on HN