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Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

theintercept.com

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Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#261

Post by direwolf20 »

themaninthedark wrote: post #148
ses1984 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my point of view it looks like the right only protests when it’s not their side. That’s why Al franken resigned for a dumb photo, meanwhile republicans protect pedophile traffickers.

I would say that both sides have that view. Most people are in a bubble and are unaware of what their tribe is doing. I may be wrong but I think there have been Republicans who have resigned for extra-marital sex. While we are screaming about the current POTS and his relation with Jeffery, we gave Bill Clinton a platform to speak during the 2024 Convention. When I bring that up, I get told "It's important that we bea…

Who is Bill Clinton today? Some nobody with secret service protection? A bit less relevant than the current president, don't you think?

I'm not convinced that people really liked Bill Clinton while he was president. Democrats seem to want the files about him to be released.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#262

Post by XorNot »

Nasrudith wrote: post #183
reddozen wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't write rules against bad actors. There will always be some legal loophole a bad president can invent to exploit. if not for administrative warrants we would see some other creative (read: illegal) use of executive power. The only option is to not elect someone that doesn't respect rule of law. And since I know some enlightened "centrist" will play the both sides game: What's 1 thing any previous president ha…

I strongly disagree. You should always write rules under the assumption it will get in the hands of the worst people. If there is a 'become god-emperor' lever in your supposedly democratic government system then it is a shitty system.

Maybe so but what here really would've prevented this? The information involved is necessarily public: bank details and credit card numbers need to be shared otherwise why have them?

Writing a rule that says the government can't do this is just the government writing a rule it can simply remove it ignore when inconvenient.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#263

Post by DetroitThrow »

legitster wrote: post #32

So I don't think I actually have a problem with businesses handing over their customer data if there is a valid warrant or subpoena. That's the system working as intended. The main crux of the problem here is that the DHS has been granted a wide berth by congress to issue administrative subpoenas - i.e. not reviewed by a real judge and not directed at criminals. In "good" times this made investigations run smoothly.…

>I know we instinctively want to frame this as a privacy problem

How is that not also a privacy problem?

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#265

Post by mulmen »

ModernMech wrote: post #223
shevy-java wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how what has been described here as "the system works as intended". A free state should not be able to sniff after people for made up reasons.

> A free state should not be able to sniff after people for made up reasons. Right, exactly -- a free state should not do that, yet the system is working as intended, therefore we do not live in a free state. It's time to accept that.

Why would we accept that instead of changing it?

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#266

Post by direwolf20 »

sneak wrote: post #221
linkregister wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, law enforcement officers frequently lie about laws in order to accomplish their goals. This erodes public trust in law enforcement. As a society we should structure incentives such that agents of the government should be exposed to the externalities resulting from their actions.

> As a society we should structure incentives such that agents of the government should be exposed to the externalities resulting from their actions. That’s the most oblique way of writing “lock and load” that I’ve ever seen.

You may not advocate violence on HN. That's why the other guy spoke of the "three" boxes of liberty.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#267

Post by mulmen »

XorNot wrote: post #262
Nasrudith wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree. You should always write rules under the assumption it will get in the hands of the worst people. If there is a 'become god-emperor' lever in your supposedly democratic government system then it is a shitty system.

Maybe so but what here really would've prevented this? The information involved is necessarily public: bank details and credit card numbers need to be shared otherwise why have them? Writing a rule that says the government can't do this is just the government writing a rule it can simply remove it ignore when inconvenient.

The banking information belongs to the account holder and the bank. Google knows it by coincidence but should not share it because it isn’t theirs. If the government wants to know my banking details they can ask my bank. If they can’t figure out who my bank is they should get better at investigating. This approach is just exploiting Google’s wide reach.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#268

Post by bdangubic »

direwolf20 wrote: post #261
themaninthedark wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that both sides have that view. Most people are in a bubble and are unaware of what their tribe is doing. I may be wrong but I think there have been Republicans who have resigned for extra-marital sex. While we are screaming about the current POTS and his relation with Jeffery, we gave Bill Clinton a platform to speak during the 2024 Convention. When I bring that up, I get told "It's important that we bea…

Who is Bill Clinton today? Some nobody with secret service protection? A bit less relevant than the current president, don't you think? I'm not convinced that people really liked Bill Clinton while he was president. Democrats seem to want the files about him to be released.

while former US President is about as far from a nobody as it is humanly possible the commenter’s points are all valid. while the current President is most definitely one of the most dispicable human beings than ever roam this planet the whole epstein business is far above any US politics. and Americans generally do not give a hoot about this (see election in 2025) - especially when victims are women and children.

Re: Google Fulfilled ICE Subpoena Demanding Student Journalist Credit Card Number

#270

Post by cyphar »

legitster wrote: post #32

So I don't think I actually have a problem with businesses handing over their customer data if there is a valid warrant or subpoena. That's the system working as intended. The main crux of the problem here is that the DHS has been granted a wide berth by congress to issue administrative subpoenas - i.e. not reviewed by a real judge and not directed at criminals. In "good" times this made investigations run smoothly.…

> So I don't think I actually have a problem with businesses handing over their customer data if there is a valid warrant or subpoena. That's the system working as intended.

I disagree -- the third party doctrine that allows for governments to avoid serving/addressing warrants to the people whose data is actually being subpoenaed directly leads to things like the FISA warrant-rubber-stamp courts in the US. If the data stored on third-party servers on behalf of someone is not considered "papers and effects" of that person then it is entirely justified to subpoena every email stored on mail.google.com because it's just morally equivalent to a subpoena for "all of Foomatic's business records between 2020-2025".

It seems bonkers to me that things that are essentially implementation details (such as the way that MTAs work and the lack of crypto-obfuscation in email) should allow for a legal interpretation of the 4th amendment that effectively neuters it. Letters sent via snail-mail are handled by several third parties in a very analogous way to emails but (mostly due to historical reasons, such as the fact that letters existed during the drafting of the bill of rights) we do not apply the third-party doctrine to letters.

Of course, the US government has spent decades chipping away at the privacy of snail mail, so eventually we may end up in a world where snail mail and email are treated the same way (just not in a good way).

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