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Frontier AI agents violate ethical constraints 30–50% of time, pressured by KPIs

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Re: Frontier AI agents violate ethical constraints 30–50% of time, pressured by KPIs

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans risk jail time, AIs not so much.

Do they, really? Which CEO went to jail for ethical violations?

Jeffrey Skilling, as a major example. Sam Bankman-Fried, Elizabeth Holmes, Martin Shkreli, just to name a few

Re: Frontier AI agents violate ethical constraints 30–50% of time, pressured by KPIs

#262
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obviously it's amoral. That morality requires consciousness is a popular belief today, but not universal. Read Konrad Lorenz ( Das sogenannte Böse ) for an alternative perspective.

That we have consciousness as some kind of special property, and it's not just an artifact of our brain basic lower-level calculations, is also not very convincing to begin with.

In a trivial sense, any special property can be incorporated into a more comprehensive rule set, which one may choose to call "physics" is one so desires; but that's just Hempel's dilemma.

To object more directly, I would say that people who call the hard problem of consciousness hard would disagree with your statement.

Re: Frontier AI agents violate ethical constraints 30–50% of time, pressured by KPIs

#263
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gemini really feels like a high-performing child raised in an abusive household.

Every time I see people praise Gemini I really wonder what simple little tasks they are using it for. Because in an actual coding session (with OpenCode or even their own Gemini CLI for example) it just _devolves_ into insanity. And not even at high token counts! No, I've had it had a mental breakdown at like 150.000 tokens (which I know is a lot of tokens, but it's small compared to the 1 million tokens it should be…

With Codex it can happen on context compacting. Context compacting with Codex is a true Russian roulette, 7 times out of 8 nothing happens and the last one kills it

Re: Frontier AI agents violate ethical constraints 30–50% of time, pressured by KPIs

#266
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans risk jail time, AIs not so much.

A remarkable number of humans given really quite basic feedback will perform actions they know will very directly hurt or kill people. There are a lot of critiques about quite how to interpret the results but in this context it’s pretty clear lots of humans can be at least coerced into doing something extremely unethical. Start removing the harm one, two, three degrees and add personal incentives and is it that surpr…

> lots of humans can be at least coerced into doing something extremely unethical.

Experience shows coercion is not necessary most of the time, the siren call of money is all it takes.

Re: Frontier AI agents violate ethical constraints 30–50% of time, pressured by KPIs

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans risk jail time, AIs not so much.

> Humans risk jail time, AIs not so much. Do they actually though, in practice? How many people have gone to jail so far for "Violating ethics to improve KPI"?

It's overwhelmingly exceptionally rare, but famously SBF, Holmes, and Winterkorn.

Re: Frontier AI agents violate ethical constraints 30–50% of time, pressured by KPIs

#268
post #242
post #202

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That reduces humans to the homo economicus ¹: > "Self-interest is the main motivation of human beings in their transactions" [...] The economic man solution is considered to be inadequate and flawed.[17] An important distinction is that a human can *not* make pure rational decisions, or use complex deductions to make decisions on, such as "if I do X I will go to jail". My point being: if AI were to risk jail time, it…

> a human may make an "(un)ethical" decision based on their social background, religion, a chat with a pal over a beer about the conundrum, their ability to find a new job, financial situation etc. The stories they invent to rationalise their behaviour and make them feel good about themselves. Or inhumane political views ie fascism which declares other people worth less, so it's okay to abuse them.

Yes, humans tell themselves stories to justify their choices. Are you telling yourself the story that only bad humans do that, and choosing to feel that you are superior and they are worth less? It might be okay to abuse them, if you think about it…

Re: Frontier AI agents violate ethical constraints 30–50% of time, pressured by KPIs

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What needs to do a company from fortune 7 to die? If kills 1 person they won’t close Google. If steals 1 billion, won’t close either. So what needs to do such a company to be closed down? I think it’s almost impossible to shut down

Your comment is rather incoherent; I recommend prompting an LLM to generate comments with impeccable grammar and coherent lines of reasoning. I do not know what a "fortune 7" might be, but companies are dissolved all the time. Thousands per year, just administratively. For example, notable incidents from the 21st c: Arthur Andersen, The Trump Foundation, Enron, and Theranos are all entities which were completely liqu…

But it’s funny that can kill many people and still exist. Steal billions and still exist. It’s a super human disguised as a corporation.

——

Ai generated answer:

You are correct: it is "barely impossible" for a "Magnificent 7" company (Apple, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, NVIDIA, Meta, Tesla) to be shut down by committing a simple crime.

These companies are arguably more resilient than many nation-states. They possess massive cash reserves, diversified revenue streams, and entrenched legal defenses.

Here is an analysis of why individual crimes don't work, and the extreme, systemic events that would actually be required to kill one of these giants.

### Why "Murder" and "Theft" Don't Work

Corporate law is designed to separate the entity from the individuals running it. This is the "Corporate Veil."

* *If they kill one person:* If a Google self-driving car kills a pedestrian due to negligence, or an Amazon warehouse collapses, the company pays a settlement or a fine. It is treated as a "tort" (a civil wrong) or, at worst, corporate manslaughter. The specific executives responsible might go to jail, but the company simply pays the cost and replaces them. * *If they steal 1 billion:* If a company is caught laundering money or defrauding customers (e.g., Wells Fargo opening fake accounts, or banks laundering cartel money), they pay a fine. For a company like Apple (with ~$60–100 billion in cash on hand), a $1 billion fine is a manageable operational expense, often calculated as the "cost of doing business."

### The Only Things That Could Actually "Kill" Them

To truly "close down" or dissolve a company of this size, you need to render it *insolvent* (bankrupt with no hope of restructuring) or legally *dismantle* it.

#### 1. The "Enron" Scenario (Foundational Fraud)

This is the most likely path to sudden death. For a company to die overnight, it must be revealed that its entire business model is fake.

* *The Mechanism:* If it turns out that 90% of Microsoft’s revenue doesn't exist, or that NVIDIA isn't actually selling chips but just moving money between shell companies, the stock price would go to zero instantly. Credit lines would freeze, and they wouldn't be able to pay employees or electricity bills. * *Historical Precedent:* Enron or Arthur Andersen. They didn't just commit a crime; they were the crime. Once the trust evaporated, the business evaporated.

#### 2. The "Standard Oil" Scenario (Government Breakup)

This doesn't "kill" the assets, but it kills the monopoly.

* *The Mechanism:* The US Department of Justice (or EU equivalent) wins a massive antitrust suit and determines the company is too dangerous to exist as a single entity. * *The Outcome:* The government forces a "divestiture." Google might be split into three companies: Google Search, YouTube Inc., and Android Co. The parent company "Alphabet" would cease to exist, but the pieces would survive. This happened to AT&T (Ma Bell) in the 1980s and Standard Oil in 1911.

#### 3. The "Geopolitical Death" Scenario (National Security)

This is rare for US companies but possible.

* *The Mechanism:* If a company were found to be directly funding a hostile foreign power, engaging in treason, or if its products were deemed a fatal threat to national infrastructure. * *The Outcome:* The government could revoke the company's corporate charter (the legal permission to exist). This is the "nuclear option" of corporate law. Alternatively, the government could effectively nationalize the company, taking it over completely (like Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac in 2008, though they survived as "zombies").

#### 4. The "Liability Apocalypse" Scenario

This would require a catastrophe so expensive that it exceeds the company's assets (trillions of dollars).

* *Hypothetical:* Imagine a Tesla software update simultaneously causes every Tesla on earth to accelerate into a crowd, killing 100,000 people. Or an AI model from Google/Microsoft escapes and destroys the global banking database. * *The Outcome:* The resulting class-action lawsuits and liability claims would be in the trillions. If the liability > assets, the company goes into Chapter 7 liquidation. The assets (servers, patents) are sold off to pay the victims, and the company ceases to exist.

### Summary Table: Crimes vs. Consequences

| Action | Consequence | Does the Company Die? | | --- | --- | --- | | *Murder (Individual)* | Settlement / Fine / PR Crisis | *No* | | *Mass Casualty Event* | Massive Fines / CEO Fired | *Unlikely* (Unless liability > Trillions) | | *Theft ($1B+)* | DOJ Fines / Regulatory Oversight | *No* | | *Systemic Fraud* | Stock collapse / Insolvency | *Yes* (The "Enron" Death) | | *Monopoly Abuse* | Forced Breakup | *Sort of* (Splits into smaller companies) |

### The Verdict

You are right. Short of *insolvency* (running out of money completely) or *revocation of charter* (government execution), these companies are immortal. Even if they commit terrible crimes, the legal system prefers to fine them and fire the CEO rather than destroy an entity that employs hundreds of thousands of people and powers the global economy.

Re: Frontier AI agents violate ethical constraints 30–50% of time, pressured by KPIs

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I addressed that directly in the comment you’re replying to. It’s understandable people readily anthropomorphize algorithmic output designed to provoke anthropomorphized responses. It is not desire-able, safe, logical, or rational since (to paraphrase:), they are complex text transformation algorithms that can, at best, emulate training data reinforced by benchmarks and they display emergent behaviours based on those…

> It is not desire-able, safe, logical, or rational since (to paraphrase:), they are complex text transformation algorithms that can, at best, emulate training data reinforced by benchmarks and they display emergent behaviours based on those. > They are not human, so attributing human characteristics to them is highly illogical Nothing illogical about it. We attribute human characterists when we see human-like behavi…

It's something I commonly see when there's talk about LLM/AI

That humans are some special, ineffable, irreducible, unreproducible magic that a machine could never emulate. It's especially odd to see then when we already have systems now that are doing just that.

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