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Television is 100 years old today

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Re: Television is 100 years old today

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly not routine, but I'd say the privatization of the space industry that's unfolded over the last few decades is significant progress. When I get depressed and look out at the world, I'm actually amazed at what I'm living through—the internet, space travel, electric and autonomous cars, smartphones. It's really amazing.

"Progress" towards what? The average dystopian sci-fi story where the galaxy is ruled by mega-corporations?

SpaceEx has made a ton of progress in space travel, granted it's not an ideal situation with it being a mega corp, but it moved a hell of a lot faster than NASA could have.

Perhaps someday we'll have individualized space flight like we have ownership over our cars and private planes.

Don't know what you're getting at by saying the galaxy will be ruled by mega-corps. Seems pretty democratic so far, and most of the things achieved couldn't have been without organization.

Re: Television is 100 years old today

#262
post #87

Does anyone here still have television? Ever since I moved out of my parents house (15 years ago), I never had a TV subscription. I did own a TV screen, but only to run apps like Netflix and Youtube. I'd rather have a simple monitor without the TV options to do so, but strangely that never existed or was too expensive. Edit: to make it clear, I absolutely did not miss having TV for even a second in all of those years…

I still have an antenna to watch football and the Olympics live. Everything else is streamed.

Re: Television is 100 years old today

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth deep diving into how analog composite broadcast television works, because you quickly realize just how insanely ambitious it was for 1930s engineers to have not only conceived, but perfected and shipped at consumer scale using only 1930s technologies. Being old enough to have learned video engineering at the end of the analog days, it's kind of fun helping young engineers today wrap their brains around com…

Yes agreed! And while it is not quantized as such there is an element of semi-digital protocol to it. The concept of "scanline" is quantized and there's "protocols" for indicating when a line ends, and a picture ends etc. that the receiver/send needs to agree on... and "colorbursts packets" for line, delay lines and all kinds of clever technique etc. so it is extremely complicated. Many things were necessary to overc…

> And while it is not quantized as such there is an element of semi-digital protocol to it.

Yes, before posting I did debate that exact point in my head, with scanlines as the clearest example :-). However, I decided the point is still directionally valid because ultimately most timing-centric analog signal encoding has some aspect of being quantized, if only to thresholds. Technically it would be more correct to narrow my statement about "never quantized" to the analog waveform driving the electron gun as it sweeps horizontally across a line. It always amazes digital-centric engineers weaned on pixels when they realize the timing of the electron gun sweep in every viewer's analog TV was literally created by the crystal driving the sweep of the 'master' camera in the TV studio (and would drift in phase with that crystal as it warmed up!). It's the inevitable consequence of there being no practical way to store or buffer such a high frequency signal for re-timing. Every component in the chain from the cameras to switchers to transmitters to TVs had to lock to the master clock. Live TV in those days was truly "live" to within 63.5 microseconds of photons hitting vacuum tubes in the camera (plus the time time it took for the electrons to move from here to there). Today, "live" HDTV signals are so digitally buffered, re-timed and re-encoded at every step on their way to us, we're lucky if they're within 20 seconds of photons striking imagers.

My larger point though was that in the 1930s even that strict signal timing had to be encoded and decoded purely with discrete analog components. I have a 1950s Predicta television and looking at the components on the boards one can't help wondering "how the hell did they come up with this crazy scheme." Driving home just how bonkers the whole idea of analog composite television was for the time.

> first, how do you fit in the color so a monochrome TV can still show it?

To clarify for anyone who may not know, analog television was created in the 1930s as a black-and-white composite standard defined by the EIA in the RS-170 specification, then in 1953 color was added by a very clever hack which kept all broadcasts backward compatible with existing B&W TVs (defined in the RS-170A specification). Politicians mandated this because they feared nerfing all the B&W TVs owned by voters. But that hack came with some significant technical compromises which complicated and degraded color analog video for over 50 years.

Re: Television is 100 years old today

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes agreed! And while it is not quantized as such there is an element of semi-digital protocol to it. The concept of "scanline" is quantized and there's "protocols" for indicating when a line ends, and a picture ends etc. that the receiver/send needs to agree on... and "colorbursts packets" for line, delay lines and all kinds of clever technique etc. so it is extremely complicated. Many things were necessary to overc…

> And while it is not quantized as such there is an element of semi-digital protocol to it. Yes, before posting I did debate that exact point in my head, with scanlines as the clearest example :-). However, I decided the point is still directionally valid because ultimately most timing-centric analog signal encoding has some aspect of being quantized, if only to thresholds. Technically it would be more correct to nar…

Yes knew what you meant, and fully agree. It is fascinating TV is even possible just out of all these rather simple and bulky analog components. Even the first color TV's were with vacuum tubes and no transitors.

As I recall there's all kinds of hacks in the design to keep them cheap. For instance, letting the fly-back transformer for producing the high voltages needed operate at the same frequency as the horizontal scan rate (~15 kHz) so that mechanism essentially serves double duty. The same was even seen in microcomputers where the same crystal needed for TV was also used for the microprocessor - meaning that e.g. a "European" Commodore 64 with PAL was actually a few percent slower than an American C64 with NTSC. And other crazy things like that.

Re: Television is 100 years old today

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth deep diving into how analog composite broadcast television works, because you quickly realize just how insanely ambitious it was for 1930s engineers to have not only conceived, but perfected and shipped at consumer scale using only 1930s technologies. Being old enough to have learned video engineering at the end of the analog days, it's kind of fun helping young engineers today wrap their brains around com…

It's interesting how early digital video systems were influenced by the analog aspects. DVDs were very much still defined by NTSC/PAL even though the data is fully digital.

Indeed and even today's HDTV specification has elements based on echoes reverberating all the way from decisions made in the 1930s when specifying B&W TV.

The composite and component sampling rates (14.32 MHz and 13.5 MHz) are both based on being 4x a specific existing color carrier sampling rate from analog television. And those two frequencies directly dictated all the odd-seeming horizontal pixel resolutions we find in pre-HD digital video (352, 704, 360, 720 and 768) and even the original PC display resolutions (CGA, VGA, XGA, etc).

For example, the 720 horizontal pixels of DVD and digital satellite broadcasts was tied to the digital component video standard sampling the active picture area of an analog video scanline at 13.5 Mhz to capture the 1440 clock transitions in that waveform. Similarly, 768 (another common horizontal resolution in pre-HD video) is tied to the composite video standard sampling at 14.32 MHz to capture 1536 clock transitions. The history of how these standards were derived is fascinating (https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/techreview/trev_304-rec601_wood.pdf)

VGA's horizontal resolution of 640 is simply from adjusting analog video's rectangular aspect ratio to be square (720 * 0.909 = 640). It's kind of fascinating all these modern digital resolutions can be traced back to decisions made in the 1930s based on which affordable analog components were available, which competing commercial interests prevailed (RCA vs Philco) and the political sensitivities present at the time.

Re: Television is 100 years old today

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Steampunk' means no electricity. You need to come up with another term. Analogpunk, maybe?

"Dieselpunk" is sometimes considered the next door neighbor term for WW1 through early 1950's retrofuturism with electricity and radios/very early televisions. Sometimes people use "Steampunk" for shorthand for both because there are some overlaps in either direction, especially if you are trying for "just" pre-WWI retrofuture. Though I think the above poster was maybe especially trying to highlight the sort of pre-W…

I don't know. Steam and electricity seem more like a coincidence that they were developed at the same time, so worlds without one seem natural. Another possibility might be no semiconductors. No nuclear also feels plausible, but it's just not interesting. Anything else requires a massive stretch to explain why technology got stuck in such a state.

Re: Television is 100 years old today

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And while it is not quantized as such there is an element of semi-digital protocol to it. Yes, before posting I did debate that exact point in my head, with scanlines as the clearest example :-). However, I decided the point is still directionally valid because ultimately most timing-centric analog signal encoding has some aspect of being quantized, if only to thresholds. Technically it would be more correct to nar…

Yes knew what you meant, and fully agree. It is fascinating TV is even possible just out of all these rather simple and bulky analog components. Even the first color TV's were with vacuum tubes and no transitors. As I recall there's all kinds of hacks in the design to keep them cheap. For instance, letting the fly-back transformer for producing the high voltages needed operate at the same frequency as the horizontal…

> "European" Commodore 64 with PAL was actually a few percent slower than an American C64 with NTSC. And other crazy things like that.

Indeed! Even in the Playstation 2 era, many games still ran at different speeds in Europe than the U.S. and Japan. There were so many legacy artifacts which haunted computers, games, DVDs and more for decades after analog broadcast was supplanted by digital. And it all arose from the fact the installed base and supporting broadcast infrastructure of analog television was simply too massive to replace. In a way it was one of the biggest accrued "technical debts" ever!

The only regrettable thing is during the long, painful transition from analog to digital, a generation of engineers got the idea that the original analog TV standard was somehow bad - which, IMHO, is really unfair. The reality is the original RS-170 standard was a brilliant solution which perfectly fulfilled, and even exceeded, all its intended use cases for decades. The problems only arose when that solution was kept alive far beyond its intended lifetime and then hacked to support new use cases like color encoding while maintaining backward compatibility.

Analog television was created solely for natural images captured on vacuum tube cameras. Even the concept of synthetic imagery like character generator text and computer graphic charts was still decades in the future. Then people who weren't yet born when TV was created, began to shove poorly converted, hard-edged, low-res, digital imagery into a standard created to gracefully degrade smooth analog waveforms and it indeed sucked. I learned to program on an 8-bit computer with 4K of RAM connected to a Sears television through an RF modulator. Even 32 columns of 256x192 text was a blurry mess with color fringes! On many early 8-bit computers, some colors would invert randomly based on which clock phase the computer started on! Red would be blue and vice versa so we'd have to repeatedly hit reset until the colors looked correct. But none of that craziness was the fault of the original television engineers, we were abusing what they created in ways they couldn't have imagined.

Re: Television is 100 years old today

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Dieselpunk" is sometimes considered the next door neighbor term for WW1 through early 1950's retrofuturism with electricity and radios/very early televisions. Sometimes people use "Steampunk" for shorthand for both because there are some overlaps in either direction, especially if you are trying for "just" pre-WWI retrofuture. Though I think the above poster was maybe especially trying to highlight the sort of pre-W…

I don't know. Steam and electricity seem more like a coincidence that they were developed at the same time, so worlds without one seem natural. Another possibility might be no semiconductors. No nuclear also feels plausible, but it's just not interesting. Anything else requires a massive stretch to explain why technology got stuck in such a state.

Perhaps, if you are worried about realism from the perspective of modern technology. But a lot of the concept of retrofuturism is considering the possible futures from the perspectives of the past. You don't necessarily need realism for why you would consider an exercise like that.

Steampunk is "rootable" in the writings of Jules Verne and H. G. Wells and others. We have scifi visions from Victorian and Edwardian lenses. It wasn't needed at the time to explain how you steam power a submarine or a rocket ship, it was just extrapolating "if this goes on" of quick advances in steam power and expecting them to eventually get there.

Similar with a lot of Diselpunk. The 1930s through the 1950s are often referred to as the Golden Age of scifi. There's so much science fiction written in the real world with a zeal for possible futures that never happened. We don't necessarily need a "massive stretch" to explain why technology took a different path or "got stuck" at a particular point. We've plenty of ideas of the exuberance of that era just in the books that they wrote and published themselves.

(Not that we are lacking in literary means to create excuses for the "realism" of retrofuture, either, when we care to. For one obvious instance, the Fallout franchise's nuclear warfare is central to its dieselpunk setting and an obvious reason for technology to get "stuck". For one less obvious reason, I like "For All Mankind" and its "Apollopunk" setting using the excuse of Russia beating the United States to first boots on the Moon and the butterfly impacts that could have had.)

Re: Television is 100 years old today

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The shadow mask system for colour CRTs was a huge improvement that thwarted worries about ''beams everywhere'': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_mask

Actually, the voltages had to be raised due to the shadow mask, and this rise in voltage meant you were now in x-ray territory, which wasn't the case before. The infamous problems with TV's emitting x-rays and associate recalls were the early color TV's. And it wasn't so much from the tube, but from the shunt regulators etc. in the power supply that were themselves vacuum tubes. If you removed the protection cans aro…

Most of those old TVs were not Faraday Caged either, nor were they grounded to earth, so all that radiation and energy was one hardware failure away from seriously unfunny events. Their chassis grounding always gave a tingle to the touch.
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