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Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

eupolicy.social

261–270 of 571 posts

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#261

The C15 represents a time when a vehicle was a tool. I feel vehicles want to turn into a subscription service these days. I still see these running in rural Spain and France, usually held together with wire and hope, clocking like what 400k+ km? The XUD diesel engines are practically unkillable. They have no ECU to brick, no adblue sensors to fail and put the car into limp mode and thankfully none of those DRM locked…

> The C15 represents a time when a vehicle was a tool. I feel vehicles want to turn into a subscription service these days. The same cancer that turned technology from a tool to an ad delivery machine is affecting vehicles.

Because of the growth imperative. With essential things like ICE cars, phones and personal computing, we long satisfied need, those core business products are simply essentially finished/perfected. It's market, and therefore regulatory, failure to have gigantic corporations in positions enabling rent seeking and market shaping, instead of pushing true innovation. If Apple can't come up with something innovative, they need to be forced to downscale instead of creating artificial demand for essentially the same phone 5 years in a row. If VW repeatedly missed the chance to get off their obsolete engine platform, they need to fail.

I think, Cory Doctorow's idea for regaining digital resilience, by "simply" opening up artificial software restrictions through regulation, is widely applicable and would also push for adequate downscaling and actual innovation: https://pluralistic.net/2026/01/01/39c3/

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The C15 represents a time when a vehicle was a tool. I feel vehicles want to turn into a subscription service these days. I wonder how differently cars would be built, if instead of maximizing for value extraction and crap nobody needs, they instead were optimized for utility and maintenance (and sure, fuel economy, aerodynamics and some sane environmental stuff). Like take the C15 and add 2-4 decades of manufactur…

That would be the absolute dream engineering brief. If I actually sit down and design that vehicle, it would have something like this. List, off the top of my head. 1. You keep the modern metallurgy and the crumple zones. You keep ABS and basic traction control because they are solved problems that save lives without needing cloud connectivity. 2. Instead of a 2000 USD proprietary touchscreen that will be obsolete in…

>the dashboard could be just a double DIN slot and a heavy-duty, universal tablet mount with a 100W USB-C PD port. The car provides the power and the speakers and my phone provides the maps and music.

Legally mandated backup cameras make your idea DOA.

In fact, nearly everything terrible about cars in the last decade can be traced to regulations in some way.

Wondering why transmissions are insanely complicated and unreliable now? Manufacturers were forced to eek out an extra couple MPG due to continually tightening environmental regulations. Something has to give.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#263
post #208

> The Ford Ranger (2020). One of the most popular pickups in the US. A key selling point is that the cabin is so high you can run over toddlers without even noticing. The craziest thing about this criticism is that it is phrased as hyperbole but the reality is that this is seen as a small truck in the US. The Ford Ranger actually is the best selling pickup truck in Europe for 10 straight years, but doesn’t sell as mu…

I'm probably one of the few people in this thread who are actually truck shopping right now The ranger is a great option for most people but one of my capabilities for the truck is to bring my bike to motorcycle track days. Usually I'd only take a single motorcycle, however track days are more fun with friends. to fit two motorcycles in the back of the Ranger, you need to adjust the angle of the handlebars awkwardly…

Get a trailer. Way more flexibility that way and easier loading/unloading.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? Why would people buying the cheapest possible model care? Remote start is a luxury feature. Just ignore the subscription offer like a luxury trim option.

It depends. What else is included in that subscription? Mirror and seat heating by any chance? Can you buy a Toyota that isn't always online? Because having remote start available, subscription or not, sounds like you can't.

My point was you can buy a car that is primarily safety+capability and not luxury+subscription. My rav4 has a touchscreen and power windows but that’s literally it as far as convenience/luxury. ~28k a couple years ago, no subscription.

Anything heated, remote, touch to start, etc is in the luxury category what gp was asking about avoiding.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#265
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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> (not counting emergency and service vehicles) Just gotta read the last line too :P

What do you mean, at a practical level, when you set out your "priority list" above? Are you referring to the use of congestion charges to discourage private motor vehicle use?

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#266

He's mixing US/UK vs France and 1985 vs 2025. Today, Citroen's equivalent offering is the Berlingo. Starts at 26k, not as much of a tank as the other cars but still way more massive than the C15.

Today's C15 is called... the Dacia... Dokker?

Dacia takes "obsolete" Renault technologies and sells them for dirt cheap.

Good news everyone, the Dacia Sandero might have been a laugh 20 years ago, but today Dacia are doing really well.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#267
post #183

> The Ford Ranger (2020). One of the most popular pickups in the US. A key selling point is that the cabin is so high you can run over toddlers without even noticing. The craziest thing about this criticism is that it is phrased as hyperbole but the reality is that this is seen as a small truck in the US. The Ford Ranger actually is the best selling pickup truck in Europe for 10 straight years, but doesn’t sell as mu…

I think the F-150 is the most popular. I know many people don’t care about other’s subjective experiences, but it’s always such a mindfuck to my EU mind when I see trucks of this size. Like my brain expects the car to finish, but there’s more car. Then it happens again and again in a quick succession. It confuses me, I shake it off. I look at the car again. The bed is empty, there’s one person in it. Then I think „wh…

The f-150 is a bit smaller than its big brothers the f-250 and f-350 dually!

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sane environmental stuff you mentioned has morphed into a requirement for deeply integrated electronic oversight Decent catalytic converters require an array of sensors, ECU, and ability to fine control the engine inputs to work - without them most large cities would become smog ridden hells.

For gasoline engines, electronic fuel injection is far better than a carburetor, it isn't just the emissions systems. Sure, it's harder to work on. The trade off there is that you don't have to work on it.

[flagged]

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don’t we start with computers and software first? Let’s eliminate all these different laptop options and force every manufacturer to use 3 government-mandated chassis sizes: Small, medium, and large. Make parts interchangeable with standard connectors and power budgets. Nobody is allowed to innovate or customize because we must be standardized. Where do you think we’d be now? Typing on our highly optimized MacBoo…

You are purposefully obtuse and I'm not sure what joy you derive from it but just to take your silly strawmen: Laptops for the most part are put together from standardized parts and you can exchange the major ones (CPU, RAM, storage and often even the displays) from one brand to another and it will work. And if you go to desktop computers the range of parts that can be swapped out between manufacturers increases even…

I'm sorry, but I'm not being obtuse nor making strawman arguments. I'm trying to explain an industry I'm familiar with. If you're going to start with personal attacks or calling my input "silly" I don't know why I bother, but here goes:

> Laptops for the most part are put together from standardized parts and you can exchange the major ones (CPU, RAM, storage and often even the displays) from one brand to another and it will work. And if you go to desktop computers the range of parts that can be swapped out between manufacturers increases even further (power supplies, graphics cards, etc).

You cannot swap CPUs between laptops, obviously, unless you get the exact same generation CPU with the same footprint. This fact helps basically nobody. It is true that some laptops are built around the same CPUs from a common vendor, but the same thing happens in cars too!

Major parts like transmissions are shared across many vehicles and vendors. The popular ZF 8HP transmission can be found in cars from Dodge, Audi, Jaguar, BMW, Porsche, Land Rover, Jeep, Volkswagen, and others for example.

This patterns repeats across many major components like Bosch ECUs. Automakers aren’t dumb. They’re not custom making every part for no good reason.

Many of the sensors and small pieces used in cars are generic and interchangeable. They're also available across a range of generic vendors.

Common parts like wheels and tires are standardized with small variations, much like the different RAM speeds in computers. Windshield wipers are generic. Cars take generic fuel and oil.

The point is: There are a lot of shared and common parts in the automative world already. Like your CNC example, there are some common parts where it makes sense, but you can't take the motor controller board out of a Haas and drop it into Mazak. You're familiar with this industry so I think you can see why demanding that all CNC vendors standardize their motor controllers and everything else would be a silly proposition. Likewise, I'm familiar with the automotive world and I'm trying to explain that cars do share a lot of parts already, but demanding that everyone conform to a single set of standards is a silly proposition.

Re: Allow me to introduce, the Citroen C15

#270

The C15 represents a time when a vehicle was a tool. I feel vehicles want to turn into a subscription service these days. I still see these running in rural Spain and France, usually held together with wire and hope, clocking like what 400k+ km? The XUD diesel engines are practically unkillable. They have no ECU to brick, no adblue sensors to fail and put the car into limp mode and thankfully none of those DRM locked…

Modern cars break down less than older cars -- they are more reliable, not less. They generate more power, with better emissions. They have a wealth of creature comforts and features beyond what 1980s cars had.
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