Earlier quoted context omitted.
I generally agree with your underlying point concerning attribution and intellectual property ownership but your follow-up comment reframes your initial statement: LLMs generate recombinations of code from code created by humans, without giving credit. Stack Overflow offers access to other peoples’ work, and developers combined those snippets and patterns into their own projects. I suspect attribution is low.
Stack Overflow deals with that issue by having a license agreement.
I failed to recreate the 1996 Space Jam website with Claude
261–270 of 483 posts
Re: I failed to recreate the 1996 Space Jam website with Claude
#262Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ah, those days, where you would slice your designs and export them to tables.
I learned recently that this is still how a lot of email html get generated.
Re: I failed to recreate the 1996 Space Jam website with Claude
#263Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ah, those days, where you would slice your designs and export them to tables.
I remember building really complex layouts w nested tables, and learning the hard way that going beyond 6 levels of nesting caused serious rendering performance problems in Netscape.
Re: I failed to recreate the 1996 Space Jam website with Claude
#264Earlier quoted context omitted.
Certainly if a human wrote code that solved this problem, and a second human copied and tweaked it slightly for their use case, we would have a word for them. Would we use the same word if two different humans wrote code that solved two different problems, but one part of each problem was somewhat analogous to a different aspect of a third human's problem, and the third human took inspiration from those parts of both…
Ask for something like "a first person shooter using software rendering", and search github for the function names for the rendering functions. Using Copilot I found code simply lifted from implementations of Doom, except that "int" was replaced with "int32_t" and similar. It's also fun to tell Copilot that the code will violate a license. It will seemingly always tell you it's fine. Safe legal advice.
1) Verbatin copy is first-order plagiarism.
2a) Second-order plagiarism of written text would be replacing words with synonyms. Or taking a book paragraph by paragraph and for each one of them, rephrasing it in your own words. Yes, it might fool automated checkers but the structure would still be a copy of the original book. And most importantly, it would not contain any new information. No new positive-sum work was done. It would have no additional value.
Before LLMs almost nobody did this because the chance that it would help in a lawsuit vs the amount of work was not a good tradeoff. Now it is. But LLMs can do "better":
2b) A different kind of second-order plagiarism is using multiple sources and plagiarizing each of them only in part. Find multiple books on the same topic, take 1 chapter from each and order them in a coherent manner. Make it more granular. Find paragraphs or phrases which fit into the structure of your new book but are verbatim from other books. See how granular you can make it.
The trick here is that doing this by hand is more work than just writing your own book. So nobody did it and copyright law does not really address this well. But with LLMs, it can be automated. You can literally instruct an LLM to do this and it will do it cheaper than any human could. However, how LLMs work internally is yet different:
n) Higher-order plagiarism is taking multiple source books, identifying patterns, and then reproducing them in your "new" book.
If the patterns are sufficiently complex, nobody will ever be able to prove what specifically you did. What previously took creative human work now became a mechanical transformation of input data.
The point is this ability to detect and reproduce patterns is an impressive innovation but it's built on top of the work of hundreds of millions[0] of humans whose work was used without consent. The work done by those employed by the LLM companies is minuscule compared to that. Yet all of the reward goes to them.
Not to mention LLMs completely defear the purpose of (A)GPL. If you can take AGPL code and pass it through a sufficiently complex mechanical transformation that the output does the same thing but copyright no longer applies, then free software is dead. No more freedom to inspect and modify.
[0]: Github alone has 100 million users ( https://expandedramblings.com/index.php/github-statistics/ ) and we have reason to believe all of their data was used in training.
Re: I failed to recreate the 1996 Space Jam website with Claude
#265Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, this is exactly what I was thinking. LLMs don't have precise geometrical reasoning from images. Having an intuition of how the models work is actually.a defining skill in "prompt engineering"
Yeah, still trying to build my intuition. Experiments/investigations like this help me. Any other blogs or experiments you'd suggest?
But this isn’t hugely different than your vision. You don’t see the pixel grid either. You have to use tools to measure things. You have the ability over time to iteratively interact with the image by perhaps counting grid lines but the LLM does not - it’s a one shot inference against this highly transformed image. They’ve gotten better at complex visual tasks including types of counting, but it’s not able to examine the image in any analytical way or even in its original representation. It’s just not possible.
It can however make tools that can. It’s very good at working with PIL and other image processing libraries or even writing image processing code de novo, and then using those to ground itself. Likewise it can not do math, but it can write a calculator that can do highly complex mathematics on its behalf.
Re: I failed to recreate the 1996 Space Jam website with Claude
#266Claude/LLMs in general are still pretty bad at the intricate details of layouts and visual things. There are a lot of problems that are easy to get right for a junior web dev but impossible for an LLM. On the other hand, I was able to write a C program that added gamma color profile support to linux compositors that don't support it (in my case Hyprland) within a few minutes! A - for me - seemingly hard task, which w…
> Claude/LLMs in general are still pretty bad at the intricate details of layouts and visual things Because the rendered output (pixels, not HTML/CSS) is not fed as data in the training. You will find tons of UI snippets and questions, but they rarely included screenshots. And if they do, the are not scraped.
Re: I failed to recreate the 1996 Space Jam website with Claude
#267Earlier quoted context omitted.
In case of LLMs, due to RAG, very often it's not just learning but almost direct real-time plagiarism from concrete sources.
RAG and LLMs are not the same thing, but 'Agents' incorporate both. Maybe we could resolve the bit of a conundrum by the op in requiring 'agents' to give credit for things if they did rag them or pull them off the web? It still doesn't resolve the 'inherent learning' problem. It's reasonable to suggest that if 'one person did it, we should give credit' - at least in some cases, and also reasonable that if 1K people h…
I think it should.
Sure, if you make a small amount of money and divide it among the 1000 people who deserve credit due to their work being used to create ("train") the model, it might be too small to bother.
But if actual AGI is achieved, then it has nearly infinite value. If said AGI is built on top of the work of the 1000 people, then almost infinity divided by 1000 is still a lot of money.
Of course, the real numbers are way larger, LLMs were trained on the work of at least 100M but perhaps over a billion of people. But the value they provide over a long enough timespan is also claimed to be astronomical (evidenced by the valuations of those companies). It's not just their employees who deserve a cut but everyone whose work was used to train them.
> Some people might consider this the OSS dream
I see the opposite. Code that was public but protected by copyleft can now be reused in private/proprietary software. All you need to do it push it through enough matmuls and some nonlinearities.
Re: I failed to recreate the 1996 Space Jam website with Claude
#268Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you have a source for that being the key difference? Where did you learn your words, I don’t see the names of your teachers cited here. The English language has existed a while, why aren’t you giving a citation every time you use a word that already exists in a lexicon somewhere? We have a name for people who don’t coin their own words for everything and rip off the words that other painstakingly evolved over a mi…
What a profoundly bad faith argument. We all understand that singular words are public domain, they belong to everyone. Yet when you arrange them in a specific pattern, of which there are infinite possibilities, you create something unique. When someone copies that arrangement wholesale and claims they were the first, that’s what we refer to as plagiarism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9huNI5sBd8
Re: I failed to recreate the 1996 Space Jam website with Claude
#269Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ask for something like "a first person shooter using software rendering", and search github for the function names for the rendering functions. Using Copilot I found code simply lifted from implementations of Doom, except that "int" was replaced with "int32_t" and similar. It's also fun to tell Copilot that the code will violate a license. It will seemingly always tell you it's fine. Safe legal advice.
And this is just the stuff you notice. 1) Verbatin copy is first-order plagiarism. 2a) Second-order plagiarism of written text would be replacing words with synonyms. Or taking a book paragraph by paragraph and for each one of them, rephrasing it in your own words. Yes, it might fool automated checkers but the structure would still be a copy of the original book. And most importantly, it would not contain any new inf…
As for your free software is dead argument: I think it is worse than that: it takes away the one payment that free software authors get: recognition. If a commercial entity can take the code, obfuscate it and pass it off as their own copyrighted work to then embrace and extend it then that is the worst possible outcome.
Re: I failed to recreate the 1996 Space Jam website with Claude
#270Earlier quoted context omitted.
Claude didn't write that code. Someone else did and Claude took that code without credit to the original author(s), adapted it to your use case and then presented it as its own creation to you and you accepted this. If a human did this we probably would have a word for them.
That's an interesting hypothesis : that LLM are fundamentally unable to produce original code. Do you have papers to back this up ? That was also my reaction when i saw some really crazy accurate comments on some vibe coded piece of code, but i couldn't prove it, and thinking about it now i think my intuition was wrong (ie : LLMs do produce original complex code).