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A new Google model is nearly perfect on automated handwriting recognition

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Re: A new Google model is nearly perfect on automated handwriting recognition

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to listen to the line from Portal 2 it's on this page (second line in the section linked): https://theportalwiki.com/wiki/GLaDOS_voice_lines_(Portal_2)...

Just because "Die motherfucker die motherfucker die" appeared in a song once doesn't mean it's not also death threat when someone's pointing a gun at you and saying that.

I think you might be confused or mistaken (or you are making a whole different joke).

My 2 comments are linking to different quotes from Portal 2, both the original comment

> We got the results back.....

and

> Well, what does a neck-bearded old engineer know about fashion?.....

Are from Portal 2 and the first Portal 2 quote is just a reference to the parent of that saying:

> The cake, sometimes, is a lie.

(Another Portal reference if that wasn't clear), they weren't calling the parent horrible, they were just putting in quote they liked from the game that was referenced.

That's one reason why I linked the quote, so people would understand it was a reference to the game, not the person actually saying the parent was horrible. The other reason I linked it is just because I like added metadata where possible.

Re: A new Google model is nearly perfect on automated handwriting recognition

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re restating two claims that sound intuitive but don’t actually hold up when examined: 1. “LLMs just mimic the training set, so sounding like they understand doesn’t imply understanding.” This is the magic argument reskinned. Transformers aren’t copying strings, they’re constructing latent representations that capture relationships, abstractions, and causal structure because doing so reduces loss. We know this no…

> This is the magic argument reskinned. Transformers aren’t copying strings, they’re constructing latent representations that capture relationships, abstractions, and causal structure because doing so reduces loss. Sure (to the second part), but the latent representations aren't the same as a humans. The human's world that they have experience with, and therefore representations of, is the real word. The LLM's world…

>So, yes, there is plenty of depth and nuance to the internal representations of an LLM, but no logical reason to think that the "world model" of an LLM is similar to the "world model" of a human since they live in different worlds, and any "understanding" the LLM itself can be considered as having is going to be based on it's own world model.

So LLMs and Humans are different and have different sensory inputs. So what ? This is all animals. You think dolphins and orcas are not intelligent and don't understand things ?

>What an LLM is predicting is effectively "what will I say next" after "the cat sat on the". The human might see a cat and based on circumstances and experience of cats predict that the cat will sit on the mat.

Genuinely don't understand how you can actually believe this. A human who predicts mat does so because of the popular phrase. That's it. There is no reason to predict it over the numerous things cats regularly sit on, often much more so the mats (if you even have one). It's not because of any super special understanding of cats. You are doing the same thing the LLM is doing here.

Re: A new Google model is nearly perfect on automated handwriting recognition

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gee, I don't know. How would you do at a math competition if you weren't trained with math books? Sample problems and solutions are not sufficient unless you can genuinely apply human-level inductive and deductive reasoning to them. If you don't understand that and agree with it, I don't see a way forward here. A more interesting question is, how would you do at a math competition if you were taught to read, then lef…

> A more interesting question is, how would you do at a math competition if you were taught to read, then left alone in your room with a bunch of math books? But that isn't how an LLM learnt to solve math olympiad problems. This isn't a base model just trained on a bunch of math books. The way they get LLMs to be good at specialized things like math olympiad problems is to custom train them for this using reinforceme…

The dream is to be able to teach LLMs to reason more generally, but the reasons this works for math don't generally apply

Why is that? Any suggestions for further reading that justifies this point?

Ultimately, reinforcement learning is still just a matter of shoveling in more text. Would RL work on humans? Why or why not? How similar is it to what kids are exposed to in school?

Re: A new Google model is nearly perfect on automated handwriting recognition

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the magic argument reskinned. Transformers aren’t copying strings, they’re constructing latent representations that capture relationships, abstractions, and causal structure because doing so reduces loss. Sure (to the second part), but the latent representations aren't the same as a humans. The human's world that they have experience with, and therefore representations of, is the real word. The LLM's world…

>So, yes, there is plenty of depth and nuance to the internal representations of an LLM, but no logical reason to think that the "world model" of an LLM is similar to the "world model" of a human since they live in different worlds, and any "understanding" the LLM itself can be considered as having is going to be based on it's own world model. So LLMs and Humans are different and have different sensory inputs. So wha…

> You think dolphins and orcas are not intelligent and don't understand things ?

Not sure where you got that non-secitur from ...

I would expect most animal intelligence (incl. humans) to be very similar, since their brains are very similar.

Orcas are animals.

LLMs are not animals.

Re: A new Google model is nearly perfect on automated handwriting recognition

#266

> In tabulating the “errors” I saw the most astounding result I have ever seen from an LLM, one that made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. Reading through the text, I saw that Gemini had transcribed a line as “To 1 loff Sugar 14 lb 5 oz @ 1/4 0 19 1”. If you look at the actual document, you’ll see that what is actually written on that line is the following: “To 1 loff Sugar 145 @ 1/4 0 19 1”. For those unawa…

If I ask a model to transcribe something exactly and it outputs an interpretation, that is an error and not a success.

Re: A new Google model is nearly perfect on automated handwriting recognition

#267

> In tabulating the “errors” I saw the most astounding result I have ever seen from an LLM, one that made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. Reading through the text, I saw that Gemini had transcribed a line as “To 1 loff Sugar 14 lb 5 oz @ 1/4 0 19 1”. If you look at the actual document, you’ll see that what is actually written on that line is the following: “To 1 loff Sugar 145 @ 1/4 0 19 1”. For those unawa…

Yes, and as the article itself notes, the page image has more than just "145" - there's a "u"-like symbol over the 1, which the model is either failing to notice, or perhaps is something it recognizes from training as indicating pounds. The article's assumption of how the model ended up "transcribing" "1 loaf of sugar u/145" as "1 loaf of sugar 14lb 5oz" seems very speculative. It seems more reasonable to assume that…

There’s also a clear extra space between the 4 and 5, so figuring out to group it as “not 1 45, nor 145 but 14 5” doesn’t seem worthy of astonishment.

Re: A new Google model is nearly perfect on automated handwriting recognition

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A more interesting question is, how would you do at a math competition if you were taught to read, then left alone in your room with a bunch of math books? But that isn't how an LLM learnt to solve math olympiad problems. This isn't a base model just trained on a bunch of math books. The way they get LLMs to be good at specialized things like math olympiad problems is to custom train them for this using reinforceme…

The dream is to be able to teach LLMs to reason more generally, but the reasons this works for math don't generally apply Why is that? Any suggestions for further reading that justifies this point? Ultimately, reinforcement learning is still just a matter of shoveling in more text. Would RL work on humans? Why or why not? How similar is it to what kids are exposed to in school?

An important difference between reinforcement learning (RL) and pre-training is the error feedback that is given. For pre-training the error feedback is just next token prediction error. For RL you need to have a goal in mind (e.g. successfully solving math problems) and the training feedback that is given is the RL "reward" - a measure of how well the model output achieved the goal.

With RL used for LLMs, it's the whole LLM response that is being judged and rewarded (not just the next word), so you might give it a math problem and ask it to solve it, then when it was finished you take the generated answer and check if it is correct or not, and this reward feedback is what allows the RL algorithm to learn to do better.

There are at least two problems with trying to use RL as a way to improve LLM reasoning in the general case.

1) Unlike math (and also programming) it is not easy to automatically check the solution to most general reasoning problems. With a math problem asking for a numerical answer, you can just check against the known answer, or for a programming task you can just check if the program compiles and the output is correct. In contrast, how do you check the answer to more general problems such "Should NATO expand to include Ukraine?" ?! If you can't define a reward then you can't use RL. People have tried using "LLM as judge" to provide rewards in cases like this (give the LLM response to another LLM, and ask it if it thinks the goal was met), but apparently this does not work very well.

2) Even if you could provide rewards for more general reasoning problems, and therefore were able to use RL to train the LLM to generate good solutions for those training examples, this is not very useful unless the reasoning it has learnt generalizes to other problems it was not trained on. In narrow logical domains like math and programming this evidentially works very well, but it is far from clear how learning to reason about NATO will help with reasoning about cooking or cutting your cat's nails, and the general solution to reasoning can't be "we'll just train it on every possible question anyone might ever ask"!

I don't have any particular reading suggestions, but these are widely accepted limiting factors to using RL for LLM reasoning.

I don't think RL for humans would work too well, and it's not generally the way we learn, or kids are mostly taught in school. We mostly learn or are taught individual skills and when they can be used, then practice and learn how to combine and apply them. The closest to using RL in school would be if the only feedback an English teacher gave you on your writing assignments was a letter grade, without any commentary, and you had to figure out what you needed to improve!

Re: A new Google model is nearly perfect on automated handwriting recognition

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, that's commendable self-insight, it's true of lots and lots of people but there are few who would admit it!

I am unique. Totally. It is not like HN is flooded with cognition or psychology or IQ articles every other hour. Not at all. And whenever one shows up, you do not immediately get a parade of people diagnosing themselves with whatever the headline says. Never happens. You post something about slow thinking and suddenly half the thread whispers “that is literally me.” You post something about fast thinking and the othe…

HN is not in fact flooded with cognition, psychology, and IQ articles every other hour.

Re: A new Google model is nearly perfect on automated handwriting recognition

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and I agree and it seems like the author has a naïve experience with LLMs because what he’s talking about is kind of the bread and butter as far as I’m concerned

Indeed. To me, it has long been clear that LLMs do things that, at the very least, are indistinguishable from reasoning. The already classic examples where you make them do world modeling (I put an ice cube into a cup, put the cup in a black box, take it into the kitchen, etc... where is the ice cube now?) invalidate the stochastic parrot argument. But many people in the humanities have read the stochastic parrot arg…

My favorite example: 'can cut through ?'

You can put just about anything in there for x and y, and it will almost always get it right. Can a pair of scissors cut through a boeing 747? Can a carrot cut through loose snow? A chainsaw cut through a palm leaf? Nailclippers through a rubber tire?

Because of combinatorics, the space of ways objects can interact is too big to memorize, so it can only answer if it has learned something real about materials and their properties.

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