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UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

petition.parliament.uk

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Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#261

Post by tpm »

reaperducer wrote: post #155
madeofpalk wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm somewhat indifferent to the concept of a Digital ID. The problem is that the UK government's reason for introducing it doesn't make sense - to 'solve' illegal workers, when the UK already has a (digital) system for proving right to work https://www.gov.uk/prove-right-to-work/get-a-share-code-onli...

I'm somewhat indifferent to the concept of a Digital ID. The problem is that the UK government's reason for introducing it doesn't make sense - to 'solve' illegal workers, when the UK already has a (digital) system for proving right to work I saw some British politicians discussing this on Sky last week, and I really don't see the point of the British digital ID. They say having yet another new ID number will make th…

> They say having yet another new ID number will make things "easier." But didn't really say how. Brits already have ID numbers for lots of things.

They don't have a national ID system though. Having a lot of different ID systems that are IDing other things for other purposes doesn't address this.

> My tech mind tells me that it's just going to save some DB admins from having to JOIN some columns.

I don't know how this works in the UK but I do know a bit about how this works in other jurisdictions. The data in the current systems are there because there is a law that says what data is collected and for what purpose. You can't lawfully use it for a different purpose (there might be a loophole for public safety or whatever, but that would be an exception). Your organisation would break the law and the bosses could go to jail. But also, it was designed for one purpose and if you tried to use it for a different one, you would run into a lot of data quality issues.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#262

Post by username332211 »

reorder9695 wrote: post #89
skeletal88 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our system in Estonia works well. I don't get the resistance to a digital/national id in other countries. To us it is quite bizarre. Some have explained it with a lack of trust between citizens and the country. But without such digital id it is impossible to have such digital government services as we have here. The government services need to verify and autheticate the citizen, so they only access their own data and…

The UK government has justified this with reducing the amount of illegal workers. To work legally currently you need an NI number, this is not an improvement on that system other than requiring everyone to have a phone (probably with safetynet checks to ensure it can't be running a custom rom). I personally do not trust the government one little bit and am sure they'll find some way to abuse this, as they have just a…

The crackdown on immigrants is just an excuse. The real reason is different, the government is out of money and it doesn't believe most of the current welfare bill goes to people in genuine need. (Hence why the previous misadventures of a left-wing government involved 2 attempts at cutting welfare - first the winter bonus for pensioners, then a type disability payments).

The direct attempts at a crackdown failed, and the civil service keeps telling them it can't find any welfare fraud, (which looks fairly unlikely, given certain regional patterns), so they are trying to attack the problem indirectly - by synchronizing the identity numbers of different government record-keeping systems - HMRC, national insurance, the NHS, the land registry, council records.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#263

Post by dmazin »

basisword wrote: post #183
dmazin wrote: post #24

The thing that frustrates me the most about digital ID cards is not themselves on merit but rather modern Labour's political abilities. Like, the UK economy is stagnant, there is a cost-of-living crisis, and Labour needs to present the public with an alternative to Farage. And the answer is... digital ID cards?

I would hope they can do more than one thing at a time. On the economy, £30bn of tech investment was announced last week.

You're right. Another positive note is Miliband's stuff with energy -- my understanding is that they are doing mostly the right things and succeeding in the political battles they need to win.

But there's also the issue of selling this to the public. The stuff you and I are talking about is quiet, probably because it's not sexy. The digital ID thing is loud and prominent.

This is why "green new deal" is a good idea -- it's a loud, good way to sell the public on something they'd otherwise fail to understand.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#264

Post by dmazin »

arp242 wrote: post #101
dmazin wrote: post #24

The thing that frustrates me the most about digital ID cards is not themselves on merit but rather modern Labour's political abilities. Like, the UK economy is stagnant, there is a cost-of-living crisis, and Labour needs to present the public with an alternative to Farage. And the answer is... digital ID cards?

Starmer seems to be under the impression that Labour needs to focus on immigration to stave of Reform. This is a mistake because most people don't really care about immigration as such, they care about cost of living, health care, and basic things like that. Research and polling in many different countries over many different years have shown this again and again and again. People like Farage like to present "one eas…

I completely agree with you.

I feel like there are two things... one, do Reform voters even understand that Digital ID is a response to immigration? It's not clear to me that they even do.

Two, obviously immigration is not the issue. As I understand, Starmer is going to attempt to mount a serious counter-narrative to Farage. I really hope that his answer will not be "look, we hate immigrants too!" They tried that a few months ago, didn't they? The whole "island of strangers" Enoch Powell thing. I hope that that was as bad as it gets.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#265

Post by dmazin »

VBprogrammer wrote: post #65
dmazin wrote: post #24

The thing that frustrates me the most about digital ID cards is not themselves on merit but rather modern Labour's political abilities. Like, the UK economy is stagnant, there is a cost-of-living crisis, and Labour needs to present the public with an alternative to Farage. And the answer is... digital ID cards?

Completely agree. I'm not too bothered Digital ID cards, I was mildly annoyed by the idea of actual ID cards (manly the cost) but as a free digital app, I don't have many objections. I've seen it from colleagues in Denmark. If they manage to build in some zero knowledge proof of age I might even support it. But how this is supposed to stop immigration, illegal or otherwise, is beyond me.

Why should we stop immigration?

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#266

Post by deafpolygon »

At this point, I have no confidence that digital ID cards won’t be plagued by fraud, exploited by malicious actors, or misused in ways we can’t yet foresee. And beyond that, there’s the very real risk of government employees abusing the system for personal gain.

Until there are stronger guarantees protecting individual freedom and privacy, I can’t see a system like this as trustworthy.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#267

Post by DanielHB »

SXX wrote: post #218
skeletal88 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our system in Estonia works well. I don't get the resistance to a digital/national id in other countries. To us it is quite bizarre. Some have explained it with a lack of trust between citizens and the country. But without such digital id it is impossible to have such digital government services as we have here. The government services need to verify and autheticate the citizen, so they only access their own data and…

Russia also have very good digital services. Now in one go government can send you conscription notification and immediately block your from leaving country as well as revoke driver license, block your banks and even phone numbers. Also since all the data available about you in one place any malicious actor who can bribe someone with access can immediately get all your data: passport info and tax id, addresses, work…

The judicial system is the one who is supposed to prevent abuses of power like this. What you are proposing is essentially security through obscurity, if the data is fragmented all over the place on different institutions it is really hard to be exploited in the government, but still totally can be.

Confidential data can have better security checks and encryption layers so it is accessible only by the citizen itself or whoever the citizen grants access to (please don't bring up blockchain, it can be done without it). The technology exists.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#268

Post by tmtvl »

uyzstvqs wrote: post #57

We need to clearly define some stuff around Digital ID, since people seem to be using the term for distinctly different things. There's (1) eGovernment platforms, where you can handle government-related business online using a login. There's (2) Digital ID cards, where you can use your phone in place of a physical ID or drivers license in real life. And then there's (3) full EU-proposed-style Digital ID, where govern…

If (2) being mandatory means that you need an Android or iPhone in order to work or do anything you need an ID for, then I refer to my basic stance whenever this kind of crap comes up:

Tying citizen's rights to acceptance of Alphabet or Apple's Terms of Service ought to be a crime against humanity. It would also be a bad idea for a sovereign state to give foreign corporations so much power.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#269

Post by reaperducer »

bamboozled wrote: post #192
reaperducer wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sky didn't say anything. The two talking heads from two different political parties said things. As an outsider, I have no idea if Sky News is "right wing" or not. I watch Sky and BBC because those are the two British services I can get where I am. (And occasionally ITV, but it seems to be all potatoes, and no meat.) I note that instead of addressing the topic of discussion, you deflect into another topic. Why is tha…

Sure, but it’s not like there media outlets just select any old person to discuss any old topic. They can choose who they want to be the mouthpiece for a certain topic and make sure they get plenty of airtime to say whatever is required…

Still off topic. Why is that?

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#270

Post by random9749832 »

Not surprising the country is heading down this direction. Once worked at a school briefly, everything is heavily monitored and low trust. If you are new you have to show a certificate showing you have nothing on your record and ID such as a passport. Then you need a badge that you need to wear at all times or else have a staff member with you at all times. You are never allowed to use your phone unless in staff room. You must sign in every time you enter the building and sign out when you leave. Anything can be said about you and land you in HR. Everyone is like a walking CCTV.

This is the future for broader society as the government has no trust in its citizens and believes the only solution is to monitor and control. The above will just be extrapolated where it can.

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