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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

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Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#261

Post by lukan »

EGreg wrote: post #244
lukan wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Best case scenario would be, lots of children will be saved from abuse because the magic software somehow discovers that. I kind of doubt it though.

No, you don’t get it. Hosting or possessing CSAM has criminal penalties even if no children were involved. For example AI generated imagery. In fact, even if zero children are ever trafficked or abused going forward, and pedophiles only use old photos of children from 30 years ago, merely having these images is still an issue. Conversely, the vast majority of sexual abuse of minors doesn’t involve images and goes unr…

"No, you don’t get it."

Did you get my last sentence?

"In short - if they wanted to reduce child abuse, scanning everyone’s communications for CSAM would not be the most straightforward way to go about it."

What would be the most straightforwand way? Install a camera in every home?

Yes, abuse is usually more to be found inside families. And the solution kind of complicated, involving social workers, phone numbers victims can call, safe houses for mothers with children to flee into, police officers with sensitive training who care, teachers who are not burned out to actually pay attention to troubled kids ...

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#263

Post by luxcem »

Bender wrote: post #118
palata wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slack is not end-to-end encrypted and belongs to a US company. So there is no need for ChatControl there: the US government already has access to everything that is written on Slack.

I believe they are referring to using GPG to encrypt data before putting it into Slack, much like using the out of band OTR. In that case all the data shared between those using GPG or OTR would only be accessible to those with the right out of band keys. There are probably not a lot of people doing this, or not enough for governments to care. I do this in IRC using irssi-otr [1]. If that ever became illegal because…

If you really want to use encryption under a state where it's forbidden and communication are monitored you rather want to hide your encrypted messages inside cat pictures and tiktok videos. Because blatant obfuscation might trigger warning and draw attention.

In the end it's not about making encryption technically impossible but illegal, and if you use it you'll be prosecuted.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#264

Post by mywrathacademia »

First they came for the Lockdown skeptics And I did not speak out Because I was not a Lockdown skeptic Then they came for the Social distancing skeptics And I did not speak out Because I was not a Social distancing skeptic Then they came for the Face mask skeptics And I did not speak out Because I was not a Face mask skeptic Then they came for the Vaccine skeptics And I did not speak out Because I was not a Vaccine Skeptic Then they came for the Vaccine passport skeptics And I did not speak out Because I was not a Vaccine passport skeptic Then they came for me And there was no one left To speak out for me

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#265

Post by kypro »

palata wrote: post #251
jimbo808 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that is crazy to me is that they choose to go after Signal of all things. Certainly there would be higher priority targets than a messaging app that has no social networking features to speak of, if child predators were really the target here.

This is nonsense. Anyone who has the smallest clue would use Signal for anything sensitive. Of course people would use Signal to talk about illegal stuff. I am against ChatControl. But I am amazed by all the bullshit arguments that people find to criticise ChatControl. If you have more control, obviously it's easier to track criminals. That's not the question at all. The question is: what is the cost to society? A fe…

You're all assuming that predators who are already deliberating using apps which are encrypted to share CSAM won't just move to something else where there is encryption – which will always be possible unless the EU fines a way to ban maths or reverts back to the pre-digital age.

This might catch the odd moron sharing stuff on Facebook or on their phone, but I doubt it will stop the average offender was is already going out of their way to use encrypted apps/services.

But okay great, at least you catch the morons I guess, but at what cost? Here in the UK it's pretty common to be arrested for tweets at it is. There's no doubt in my mind this will be used to catch individuals committing speech crimes who are currently getting away with it because they share their opinions behind closed doors.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#266

Post by nikkwong »

delis-thumbs-7e wrote: post #249
nikkwong wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Econ 101: why do consumption taxes work at all? By increasing the amount of pain associated with purchasing a particular indulgent product, you decrease the consumption of that product on the margin . When you increase the price of cigarettes by 20%, cigarette smoking in a society decreases. But for the most addicted, no consumption tax will probably act as a deterrent. Some individuals will find a way to di…

Wait. Are you calling child pornography an ”indulgent product?”

Was referring to tobacco, alcohol, soft drinks etc

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#267

Post by budududuroiu »

nikkwong wrote: post #151

Imagine a future where it becomes easier to commit terrorism because of some technological advancements—like smaller, less traceable bombs, or chemical weapons that are easily accessible and lead to higher casualties—like in the 1,000s or more. Imagine in that scenario, that the likelihood of you or someone you know becoming the victim of a terrorist attack is now non-trivial in your society. In a future where this b…

I get your point, but this is baked into the social contract in China. You obey the party, give up some personal freedoms, and in exchange the party will make sure you live a prosperous safe life.

The current EU political class has completely lost their Mandate of Heaven, they command 0 respect because they’re spineless empty bureaucrats looking for a cushy consulting job after they’re done being lobbied by their future employers.

Even if your utopian idea makes sense, I don’t trust the EU politicians to bring it to life, just virtue signal

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#268

Post by DangitBobby »

ux266478 wrote: post #197
DangitBobby wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large portion of the population either does not believe or does not mind the violations of our constitution to achieve their desired outcomes. As an American, it came as a surprise to me that we do not, in fact, have broadly shared values about our system of governance. This year has been a devastating blow to my confidence in our democracy and the ability of people to govern themselves generally.

> As an American, it came as a surprise to me that we do not, in fact, have broadly shared values about our system of governance. It shouldn't, America is two very distinct nations. The shape and nature of those nations vary wildly in classical Baudrilliardian sidewinding progression, but it's rooted in the very early history of British North America. Two distinct primogenitor colonies and societies, Jamestown and Pl…

Of course I understood there were vast cultural and political differences causing tension. I just also believed that we had a shared system of fundamental values enshrined in the constitution and when push came to shove, we would all rally behind it. That's what I thought American patriotism meant; I genuinely thought I could count on Red voters to rabidly defend the constitution.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#269

Post by kyboren »

1718627440 wrote: post #227
tick_tock_tick wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, in the EU you technically have the right to freedom of expression, but you can also be arrested if you say something that could offend someone. So you actually don't have freedom of expression?

No offendings are not an expression. What do you express with them, poor anger management? Your right to something ends were a right of someone else is violated. That's the case here.

> Your right to something ends were a right of someone else is violated. That's the case here.

Ah yes, that memorable trifecta: Life, Liberty, and the Right to Never Hear Mean Words.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#270

Post by miroljub »

palata wrote: post #251
jimbo808 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that is crazy to me is that they choose to go after Signal of all things. Certainly there would be higher priority targets than a messaging app that has no social networking features to speak of, if child predators were really the target here.

This is nonsense. Anyone who has the smallest clue would use Signal for anything sensitive. Of course people would use Signal to talk about illegal stuff. I am against ChatControl. But I am amazed by all the bullshit arguments that people find to criticise ChatControl. If you have more control, obviously it's easier to track criminals. That's not the question at all. The question is: what is the cost to society? A fe…

It was unencrypted and “it was fine“ because it was technically nearly impossible to store and process all communications. Now, one small server cluster can analyse all communication channels in a country in real time. The only thing stopping it is the encryption.
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