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AMD claims Arm ISA doesn't offer efficiency advantage over x86

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Re: AMD claims Arm ISA doesn't offer efficiency advantage over x86

#261

This is an entirely uncontroversial take among experts in the space. x86 is an old CISC-y hot mess. RISC-V is a new-school hyper-academic hot mess. Recent ARM is actually pretty good. And none of it matters, because the uncore and the fabrication details (in particular, whether things have been tuned to run full speed demon or full power sipper) completely dominate the ISA. In the past x86 didn't dominate in low powe…

An annoying thing people have done since Apple Silicon is claim that its advantages were due to Arm. No, not really. The advantage is Apple prioritizing efficiency, something Intel never cared enough about.

> The advantage is Apple prioritizing efficiency, something Intel never cared enough about.

Intel cared plenty once they realized that they were completely missing out on the mobile phone business. They even made X86/Atom chips for the phone market. Asus for example had some phones (Zenfone) with Intel X86 chips in them in the mid-2010s. However, Intel Atom suffered from poor power efficiency and battery life and soon died.

Re: AMD claims Arm ISA doesn't offer efficiency advantage over x86

#262
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact. The idea of strong national security is the reason why there are three companies with access to the x86 ISA. DoD originally required all products to be sourced by at least three companies to prevent supply chain issues. This required Intel to allow AMD and VIA to produce products based on ISA. For me this is good indicator if someone that talks about good national security knows what they are talking about…

Intel didnt "allow" VIA anything :). Via acquired x86 tech from IDT (WinChip Centaur garbage) in a fire sale. IDT didnt ask anyone about any licenses, neither did Cyrix, NextGen, Transmeta, Rise nor NEC. Afaik DoD wasnt the reason behind original AMD second source license, it was IBM forcing Intel on chips that went into first PC.

This.

Re: AMD claims Arm ISA doesn't offer efficiency advantage over x86

#263
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading this Jim Keller interview: https://web.archive.org/web/20210622080634/https://www.anand... Basically the gist of it is that the difference between ARM/x86 mostly boils down to instruction decode, and: - Most instructions end up being simple load/store/conditional branch etc. on both architectures, where there's literally no difference in encoding efficiency - Variable length instruction has pretty…

Nice followup to your link: https://chipsandcheese.com/p/arm-or-x86-isa-doesnt-matter . Personally I do not entirely buy it. Intel and AMD have had plenty of years to catch up to Apple's M-architecture and they still aren't able to touch it in efficiency. The PC Snapdragon chips AFAIK also offer better performance-per-watt than AMD or Intel, with laptops offering them often having 10-30% longer battery life at simila…

> Personally I do not entirely buy it. Intel and AMD have had plenty of years to catch up to Apple's M-architecture and they still aren't able to touch it in efficiency. The PC Snapdragon chips AFAIK also offer better performance-per-watt than AMD or Intel, with laptops offering them often having 10-30% longer battery life at similar performance.

Do not conflate battery life with core efficiency. If you want to measure how efficient a CPU core is you do so under full load. The latest AMD under full load uses the same power as M1 and is faster, thus it has better performance per watt. Snapdragon Elite eats 50W under load, significantly worse than AMD. Yet both M1 and Snapdragon beat AMD on battery life tests, because battery life is mainly measured using activities where the CPU is idle the vast majority of the time. And of course the ISA is entirely irrelevant when the CPU isn't being used to begin with.

> The same goes for GPUs, where Apple's M1 GPU completely smoked an RTX3090 in performance-per-watt, offering 320W of RTX 3090 performance in a 110W envelope

That chart is Apple propaganda. In Geekbench 5 the RTX 3090 is 2.5x faster, in blender 3.1 it is 5x faster. See https://9to5mac.com/2022/03/31/m1-ultra-gpu-comparison-with-... and https://techjourneyman.com/blog/m1-ultra-vs-nvidia-rtx-3090/

Re: AMD claims Arm ISA doesn't offer efficiency advantage over x86

#264
"When RISC first came out, x86 was half microcode. So if you look at the die, half the chip is a ROM, or maybe a third or something. And the RISC guys could say that there is no ROM on a RISC chip, so we get more performance. But now the ROM is so small, you can’t find it. Actually, the adder is so small, you can hardly find it? What limits computer performance today is predictability, and the two big ones are instruction/branch predictability, and data locality."

Jim Keller

Re: AMD claims Arm ISA doesn't offer efficiency advantage over x86

#265
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading this Jim Keller interview: https://web.archive.org/web/20210622080634/https://www.anand... Basically the gist of it is that the difference between ARM/x86 mostly boils down to instruction decode, and: - Most instructions end up being simple load/store/conditional branch etc. on both architectures, where there's literally no difference in encoding efficiency - Variable length instruction has pretty…

Nice followup to your link: https://chipsandcheese.com/p/arm-or-x86-isa-doesnt-matter . Personally I do not entirely buy it. Intel and AMD have had plenty of years to catch up to Apple's M-architecture and they still aren't able to touch it in efficiency. The PC Snapdragon chips AFAIK also offer better performance-per-watt than AMD or Intel, with laptops offering them often having 10-30% longer battery life at simila…

Why would they? They are dominated by gaming benchmarks in a way Apple isn't. For decades it was not efficiency but raw performance, 50% more power usage for 10% more performance was ok.

"The same goes for GPUs, where Apple's M1 GPU completely smoked an RTX3090 in performance-per-watt"

Gamers are not interested in performance-per-watt but fps-per-$.

If some behavior looks strange to you, most probably you don't understand the underlying drivers.

Re: AMD claims Arm ISA doesn't offer efficiency advantage over x86

#266

This is an entirely uncontroversial take among experts in the space. x86 is an old CISC-y hot mess. RISC-V is a new-school hyper-academic hot mess. Recent ARM is actually pretty good. And none of it matters, because the uncore and the fabrication details (in particular, whether things have been tuned to run full speed demon or full power sipper) completely dominate the ISA. In the past x86 didn't dominate in low powe…

I remember reading this Jim Keller interview: https://web.archive.org/web/20210622080634/https://www.anand... Basically the gist of it is that the difference between ARM/x86 mostly boils down to instruction decode, and: - Most instructions end up being simple load/store/conditional branch etc. on both architectures, where there's literally no difference in encoding efficiency - Variable length instruction has pretty…

I've listened Keller's views on CPU design and the biggest takeaway I found is that performance is overwhelmingly dominated by predictors. Good predictors mitigate memory latency and keep pipelines full. Bad predictors stall everything while cores spin on useless cache lines. The rest, including ISA minutiae, rank well below predictors on the list of things that matter.

At one time, ISA had a significant impact on predictors: variable length instructions complicated predictor design. The consensus is that this is no longer the case: decoders have grown to overcome this and now the difference is negligible.

Re: AMD claims Arm ISA doesn't offer efficiency advantage over x86

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What choices? The main thing that comes to mind is lack of exceptions on integer overflow but you are unlikely meaning this.

- Handling of misaligned loads/stores: RISC-V got itself into a weird middle ground, ops on misaligned pointers may work fine, may work "extremely slow", or cause fatal exceptions (yes, I know about Zicclsm, it's extremely new and only helps with the latter, also see https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/issues/110454 ). Other platforms either guarantee "reasonable" performance for such operations, or forbid misaligne…

> Handling of misaligned loads/stores

Agreed, I think the problem is that RVI doesn't want to/can't mandate implementation details.

I hope that the first few RVA23 cores will have proper misaligned load/store support and we can tell toolchains RVA23 or Zicclsm means fast misaligned load/store and future hardware that is stupid enough to not implement it, will just have to suffer.

There is some silver lining, because you can transform N misaligned loads into N+1 aligned ones + a few instructions to stich together the result. Currently this needs to be done manually, but hopefully it will be an optimization in future compiler versions: https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/issues/150263 (Edit: oh, I should've recognised your username, xd)

> The hardcoded page size.

There is Svnapot, which is supposes to allow other page sizes, but I don't know enough about it to be sure it actually solves the problem properly.

> You have to use a CSPRNG on top of it for any sensitive applications

Shouldn't you have to do that reguardless and also mix in other kind of state on OS level?

> Extensions do not form hierarchies

The mandatory extensions in the RVA profiles are a hierarchy.

> Detection of available extensions

I think this is being worked on with unified disvover, whch should also cover other microarchitectural details.

There also is a neat toolchain solution with: https://github.com/riscv-non-isa/riscv-c-api-doc/blob/main/s...

> being unable to port tricky SIMD code to the V extension

Anything NEON code is trivially ported to RVV, as is AVX-512 code that doesn't use GFNI which is pretty much the only extension that doesn't have a RVV equivalent yet (neither does NEON or SVE though).

Where the complaints come from is if you want to take full advantage of the native vector length in VLA code, which can sometimes be tricky, especially in existing projects which are sometimes build arround the assumption of fixed vector lengths. But you can always fall back to using RVV as a fixed vector length ISA with a much faster way of querrying vector length then CPUID.

> P.S.: I would be interested to hear about other people gripes with RISC-V

I feel like encoding scalar fmacc with three sources and seperate destinations and rounding modes was a huge waste of encoding space, I would trade that for a vpternlog equivalent, which also is a encoding hog, any day.

The vl=0 special case was a bad idea, now you have to know/predict vl!=0 to get rid of the vector destination as a read dependency, or have some mechanism to kill an instuction if vl=0.

There should've been restricted vrgather variants earlier, but I'm now (slowly) working on proposing them and a handfull of other new vector instructions (mask add/sub, pext/pdep, bmatflip).

Overall though, I think RVV came out suprizingly good, everything works thogether very nicely.

Re: AMD claims Arm ISA doesn't offer efficiency advantage over x86

#268
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice followup to your link: https://chipsandcheese.com/p/arm-or-x86-isa-doesnt-matter . Personally I do not entirely buy it. Intel and AMD have had plenty of years to catch up to Apple's M-architecture and they still aren't able to touch it in efficiency. The PC Snapdragon chips AFAIK also offer better performance-per-watt than AMD or Intel, with laptops offering them often having 10-30% longer battery life at simila…

RTX3090 is a desktop part optimized for maximum performance with a high-end desktop power supply. It isn't meaningful to compare its performance per watt with a laptop part. Saying it offers a certain wattage worth of the desktop part means even less because it measures essentially nothing. You would probably want to compare it to a mobile 3050 or 4050 although this still risks being a description of the different no…

It's no comparison at all, the person who bought a 3090 in the 30xx days wanted max gaming performance, someone with an Apple laptop wants longer battery usage.

It's like comparing an F150 with an Ferrari, a decision that no buyer needs to make.

Re: AMD claims Arm ISA doesn't offer efficiency advantage over x86

#269
post #221
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s all of the above. One thing Apple excels at is actually using their hardware and software together whereas the PC world has a long history of one of the companies like Intel, Microsoft, or the actual manufacturer trying to make things better but failing to get the others on-board. You can in 2025 find people who disable power management because they were burned (hopefully not literally) by some combination of ve…

Windows 10 introduced memory compression. Here's a discussion from 2015 [0]. And one on Linux by IBM from 2013 [1]. But the history goes way back [2]. I don't know why that '8GiB is great!' -- no, no it isn't. Your memory usage just spills over to swap faster. It isn't more efficient (not with those 16KiB pages). [0] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/shows/Seth-Juarez/Memory-C... [1] https://events.static.linuxfound.…

i think i had 20+ years ago servers with this https://www.eetimes.com/serverworks-rolls-out-chip-set-based...

Re: AMD claims Arm ISA doesn't offer efficiency advantage over x86

#270

You’ll pry the ARM M series chips of my Mac from my cold dead hands. They’re a game changer in the space and one of the best reasons to use a Mac. I am not a chip expert it’s just so night and day different using a Mac with an arm chip compared to an Intel one from thermals to performance and battery life and everything in between. Intel isn’t even in the same ballpark imo. But competition is good and let’s hope they…

I think everything depends on circumstances.

I've used laptops for 15+ years (transitioned from a Mac Cube to a white Macbook. Macbook Pro etc.) but have migrated to a desktop some years ago (first iMac Pro, now AMD), as I work at my desk and when I'm not at my desk I'm not working.

Some years ago I got a 3900X and a 2080TI. And they still work fine, and I don't have performance problems, and although I thought of getting PCI5/NVMe with a 9950x3d/395+ (or a Threadripper), I just don't need it. I've upgraded the SSDs several times for speed and capacity (now at the PCI4/M2 limit and don't want to go into RAID), and added solar panels and a battery pack for energy usage, but I'm fine otherwise.

Indeed I want to buy a new CPU and GPU, but I don't find enough reasons (though might get a Mac Studio for local AI).

But I understand your point if you need a laptop, I just decided I no longer need one, and get more power with faster compiling for less money.

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