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Navy SEALs reportedly killed North Korean fishermen to hide a failed mission

nytimes.com

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Re: Navy SEALs reportedly killed North Korean fishermen to hide a failed mission

#261

Post by impossiblefork »

keepamovin wrote: post #250
impossiblefork wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No.

Ok. So then, how can you pretend to be against the killing of civilians if you choose more rather than less of it?

I believe that respect for IHL is more important than anything.

If IHL were deeply ingrained in international political behaviour and absolutely established I could see deviations from it where such deviations could be justified on moral grounds as acceptable, but since the law is hardly even established it is more important that it be followed than that it minimizes suffering in the now.

Furthermore, I don't think that it mattered. Everyone places his tactical concerns very highly in the moment, but over time they are often irrelevant. Do you really think it matters now, whether that information was available or not?

I don't really believe there's anything useful that can be achieved when it comes to the North Korea's nuclear weapons. They have them, they'll probably try to build more of them. That sucks, but there's nothing that can be done.

Re: Navy SEALs reportedly killed North Korean fishermen to hide a failed mission

#262

Post by addandsubtract »

treis wrote: post #227
rollulus wrote: post #108

Anyone willing to speculate what the target and electronic device could’ve been?

The story doesn't really make sense as written. At least it's hard to imagine something remote enough to be accessed undetected from shore and be important enough to be worth tapping. Then somehow you get the data back out without being detected? Feels like the mission happened with a different goal and this is the cover story.

I'm really curious about the tech as well. You could use a satellite connection to transmit data, but how do you power the device for days/weeks? A solar panel can't really be hidden and batteries don't last very long when you're recording audio 24/7.

Re: Navy SEALs reportedly killed North Korean fishermen to hide a failed mission

#263

Post by lifeformed »

Ferret7446 wrote: post #239
lifeformed wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I break into your home to steal something, and accidentally wake you up, is the only reasonable option for me to shoot you?

That's a surprisingly fitting analogy, because you don't know if the person you're robbing keeps a gun under their pillow, and you may only have a second to find out.

Yes, killing them is the "correct" answer if the only thing that motivates you is self-preservation, but it is the worst answer if you consider pesky inconveniences like morality, legality, and basic humanity and decency.

Re: Navy SEALs reportedly killed North Korean fishermen to hide a failed mission

#264

Post by afroboy »

wrp wrote: post #21

For anyone with direct knowledge, what's up with current military culture regarding secrecy? I knew SF guys from the Vietnam era and they didn't talk with outsiders. In fact, I can't think of any prominent "tell all" books from SOF operators from before the 21st century. Now we have ex-SEALs doing book deals.

There is no proof of these stories. They exist only to glorify the US army, this is why they allow them to spread these imaginary heroic stories.

Re: Navy SEALs reportedly killed North Korean fishermen to hide a failed mission

#265

Post by JohnBooty »

scotty79 wrote: post #167
JohnBooty wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my best understanding as well. I have watched a lot of ex-special forces guys on YT. Needless to say, I take it all with massive grains of salt, including the claim that they were even SF in the first place. However, they all describe the selection processes similarly. And, my educated assumption is that this part is probably too dull for them to lie about, much less lie about in unison across many accounts a…

> I have watched a lot of ex-special forces guys on YT. > Needless to say, I take it all with massive grains of salt I think it needs to be said that people who choose those careers are probably one of the worst kinds of people. They choose to use their unique, advantageous talents to murder people on command. And then you select out of those the ones that think being interviewed on YouTube about that is a good idea.…

    They should be studied anthropologically not listened too.
Yes, I agree. That is overwhelmingly why I watch them. I'm not really looking to them for life advice, but I do think they are fascinating to "study"

    I think it needs to be said that people who 
    choose those careers are probably one of the 
    worst kinds of people
I think a lot of them are problematic, but there are a number of reasons I would strongly disagree with that as a 100% true blanket statement.

    And then you select out of those the ones 
    that think being interviewed on YouTube about that 
    is a good idea.
Yeahhhhh.... I mean, I don't begrudge these guys for needing to make a living. I don't think it's inherently wrong. For better or worse this is capitalism and people need to earn a living somehow. But it certainly does call for increased skepticism on the part of the viewer.

Re: Navy SEALs reportedly killed North Korean fishermen to hide a failed mission

#266

Post by JohnBooty »

hnu0847 wrote: post #210
JohnBooty wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my best understanding as well. I have watched a lot of ex-special forces guys on YT. Needless to say, I take it all with massive grains of salt, including the claim that they were even SF in the first place. However, they all describe the selection processes similarly. And, my educated assumption is that this part is probably too dull for them to lie about, much less lie about in unison across many accounts a…

> I have watched a lot of ex-special forces guys on YT. What specific channels would you recommend?

I'm hesitant to answer with specific recommendations because I think there is a lot of truth-stretching and self-promotion in this space. Nearly all of them are trying to make a buck, which I don't think is inherently wrong (people have to earn a living, and they do have unique skills/experiences/viewpoints to offer) but certainly clouds the issue further.

The majority of them also have views that I find pretty problematic.

Re: Navy SEALs reportedly killed North Korean fishermen to hide a failed mission

#267

Post by jjtheblunt »

nugget wrote: post #121
jandrese wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Navy isn't in the wiretap business.

The Navy has conducted some extremely consequential wiretaps. A fantastic book about the subject: https://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mans-Bluff-Submarine-Espionage/...

excellent reference : bought it. thank you.

Re: Navy SEALs reportedly killed North Korean fishermen to hide a failed mission

#268

Post by some_guy_nobel »

vkou wrote: post #65
some_guy_nobel wrote: post #23

Not as bad as Bay of Pigs, but despicable nonetheless. Kudos to the journalists who surfaced this.

The Bay of Pigs was arguably an act of war, this was a war crime.

I think you can credibly make either claim for both.

Re: Navy SEALs reportedly killed North Korean fishermen to hide a failed mission

#269

Post by vkou »

some_guy_nobel wrote: post #268
vkou wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Bay of Pigs was arguably an act of war, this was a war crime.

I think you can credibly make either claim for both.

An act of war follows the rules of war. You are allowed to shoot in an area where civilians are, if you are aiming for a military asset.

You can't just massacre a village because some villagers saw you.

The animals who did this were not following the rules of war. The animals who covered it up, and did not prosecute them deserve to hang with them, too.

Re: Navy SEALs reportedly killed North Korean fishermen to hide a failed mission

#270

Post by harambae »

runsWphotons wrote: post #94
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And take them where? Bear in mind the seal team came in on a sub that didn't even have air . They probably don't have restraints of any kind or a way to keep them from shouting... Which is not to say what they did do was right, but "just kidnap some people" is not really a practical reality.

drive the fishing boat back to the submarine. harold holt swam to one it can be done

I like conspiracy theories as much as the next guy (especially when it would only technically require a few people here), but it seems more likely Holt just got eaten by a shark or drowned. People die in open-water situations all the time.
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