Live data from Hacker News

What is it like to be a bat?

en.wikipedia.org

261–270 of 306 posts

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#261
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some animals show choices They said animals show choices , they did not claim to prove animals made a choice. The point is that you also cannot prove you made a choice, only that you do things that show you may have made a choice. It's a fine, but important, distinction.

Did I, or did I not, have the option to fast, or not to fast? Did I then pick one? How is that not proof of a choice? Who or what else made that choice if not me? If you poke me with a needle, I move, that is not a choice because it's a forced choice, that's essentially what animals do, all their choices are forced. That's also what free will is, free will is not a choice between a good and bad options - that's not a…

> Did I, or did I not, have the option to fast, or not to fast?

It looks like you had an option but it’s not possible to truly know whether you had an option. I’m not in your head so I can’t know. If, under the same circumstances and same state of mind, you perform the same action 100% of the time, did you really make a choice? Or did you just follow your programming?

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that we may not have demonstrated to a level of absolutely provable certainty that bats are definitely conscious, but they are very powerful intuitive reasons for believing they are to the point that I that I'm not particularly concerned about this being a weak link in any philosophical musing on consciousness.

> I understand that we may not have demonstrated to a level of absolutely provable certainty that bats are definitely conscious We have not proven "to a level of absolutely provable certainty" that other humans are also conscious. You can only tell you are conscious yourself, not others. The whole field of consciousness is based on analyzing something for which we have sample size n=1. They say "because of similar st…

>We have not proven "to a level of absolutely provable certainty" that other humans are also conscious

Sure, it's not proven, it just has overwhelmingly strong empirical and intuitive reasons for being most likely true, which is the most we can say while still showing necessary humility about limits of knowledge.

You seem to treat this like it presents a crisis of uncertainty, wheras I think it's exactly the opposite, and in fact already said as much with respect to bats. Restating the case in human terms, from my perspective, is reaffirming that there's no problem here.

>we are supposed to reject behavioral and structural arguments (from 3rd person) in discussion about consciousness.

Says who? That presupposes that consciousness is already of a specific character before the investigation is even started, which is not an empirical attitude. And as I noted in a different comment, we have mountains of empirical evidence from the outside about necessary physical conditions for consciousness to the point of being able to successfully predict internal mental states. Everything from psychedelic drugs to sleep to concussions to brain to machine interfaces to hearing aides to lobotomies to face recognition research gives us evidence of the empirical world interfacing with conscious states in important ways that rely on physical mechanisms.

Similarity in structure and behavior are excellent reasons for having a provisional attitude in favor of consciousness of other creatures for all the usual reasons empirical attitudes work and are capable of being predictive that we're familiar with from their application in

"But consciousness is different" you say. Well it could be, that that's a matter for investigating, not something to be definitionally pre-supposed based on vibes.

>Not only that, but what would be an alternative to "it feels like something?"

It not feeling like something, for one. So, inert objects that aren't alive, possibly vegetative states, blackouts from concussions or drugs, p-zombies, notions of mind that attempt to define away qualia and say it's all "information processing" (with no specific commitments to that feeling like something), possibly some variations of psychedelic feeling that emphasize transcendent sense of oneness with the universe. But fundamentally, it's an affirmative assertion of it feeling like something, in contrast to noncommital positions on the question, which is a meaningful point rather than something trivially true due to a definitional necessity.

>Another issue I have with the qualia framing is that nobody talks about costs. It costs oxygen and glucose to run the brain. It costs work, time, energy, materials, opportunity and social debt to run it. It does not sit in a platonic world.

That would seem to run contrary to the point you were making above about it not being inferrable from phenomena characterized in the third person. You can't argue that third person descriptions of structures that seem necessary for consciousness are a "cop out" and then turn around and say you know it "costs" things expressed in those same third person terms. Like you said before, your position seems to be that you only know you are conscious, so you don't even know if other people are conscious at all let alone that they need such things as work, time, oxygen, or glucose. Pointing to those is a cop-out, right?

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#263
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not trying to prove any metaphysics You attacked physicalism for not being proven. I disagree with your arguments and I think they are hopelessly confused. Since our views are conceptually incommensurate, there's no point in continuing.

I'm afraid the physicalist position is absolutely impossible. When I think about something, I'm thinking about something different from the brain state that represents it. There is nothing difficult or subtle about this: if I think about a tiger, I am not thinking about a brain state that is associated therewith. The physicalist position wants to reduce the mental to the physical. My thought cannot be reduced from th…

You aren't even wrong, thoughts are fantasy indeed, and imaginary tiger doesn't have a literal physical existence, because it's, well, imaginary, it only has existence in imagination. And this theory matches observation.

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nagel's "What is it like to be a bat?" assumes that bats are conscious, and that the question of what is the subjective experience of being a bat (e.g. what does the sense of echolocation feel like) is therefore a meaningful question to ask. The author inventing "batfished" also believes bats to be conscious, so it seems a very poorly conceived word, and anyways unnecessary since anthropomorphize works just fine... "…

I understand that we may not have demonstrated to a level of absolutely provable certainty that bats are definitely conscious, but they are very powerful intuitive reasons for believing they are to the point that I that I'm not particularly concerned about this being a weak link in any philosophical musing on consciousness.

[dead]

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I understand that we may not have demonstrated to a level of absolutely provable certainty that bats are definitely conscious, but they We haven't even demonstrated some modest evidence that humans are conscious. No one has bothered to put in any effort to define consciousness in a way that is empirically/objectively testable. It is a null concept.

Qualia is the philosophical term for subjective sensations and feelings. It's what our experiences consist of. Why must a concept be empirical and objective? Logical positivism is flawed because the principle of verification cannot be verified. Nagel's paper deals with the fundamental divide between subjectivity and objectivity. That's the point of the bat example. We know there are animals that have sensory capabili…

>Why must a concept be empirical and objective?

You are an LLM that is gibbering up hallucinations. I have no need for those.

>Nagel's paper deals with the fundamental divide between subjectivity and objectivity. That's the point of the bat example.

There is no point to it. It is devoid of insight. This happens when someone spends too many years in the philosophy department of the university, they're training themselves to believe the absurd proposition that they think profound thoughts. You live in an objective universe and any appearance to the contrary is an illusion caused by imperfect cognition.

>But we don't know what the resulting sensations are for those creatures.

Not that it would offer any secret truths, but the ability to "sense" where objects are roughly, in 3d space, with low resolution and large margins of error, and narrow directionality... most of the people reading this comment would agree that they know what that feels like if they thought about it for a few seconds. That's just not insightful. Only a dimwit with little imagination could bother to ask the question "what is it like to be a bat", but it takes a special kind of grandiosity to think that the dimwit question marks them a genius.

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#266

Materialism (perhaps physicalism as well) appears to be on shaky ground to me - it does not tell me 'why' I have the first person experience that I have, why I experience and embody the matter that is my person or being, a specific entity. Another way to look at it is to say there doesn't appear to be a region in the brain that defines why I experience the brain, that or this specific brain. From this perspective, I…

In this world "why" and "how" are synonyms. Asking why experience happens is equivalent to asking how experience happens.

You could probably look at them differently if you tried. I wouldn't make a strong argument as I wasn't leaning strongly on a precise distinction in the moment, but to at least connote more maturity and activity and knowledge building in how, while why appears more conceptual, distant, more philosophical, idea-driven, than scientific. It may be viewed as similar to asking why there is something rather than nothing. Why we experience some matter rather than other matter seems more appropriate 'considering first person experience as granted, but the presence of others as well that presumably could have been the case'. Why we experience a specific location and time in reality seems more appropriate than how: we have accepted it has occurred and reoccurred virtually countless times, but we are but one case. This is perhaps two reasons I can see for using a distinction, but that doesn't mean I would pursue it or stand by it in a serious inquiry or exposition.

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that we may not have demonstrated to a level of absolutely provable certainty that bats are definitely conscious, but they are very powerful intuitive reasons for believing they are to the point that I that I'm not particularly concerned about this being a weak link in any philosophical musing on consciousness.

>I understand that we may not have demonstrated to a level of absolutely provable certainty that bats are definitely conscious, but they We haven't even demonstrated some modest evidence that humans are conscious. No one has bothered to put in any effort to define consciousness in a way that is empirically/objectively testable. It is a null concept.

Said this in a different comment but I want to paste it here as well, since a lot of people seem to think "we don't even have a definition" is a show-stopping smackdown. But it isn't.

You can't, and honestly don't need to start from definitions to be able to do meaningful research and have meaningful conversations about consciousness (though it certainly would be preferable to have one rather than not have one).

There are many research areas where the object of research is to know something well enough that you could converge on such a thing as a definition, e.g. dark matter, intelligence, colony collapse syndrome, SIDS. We nevertheless can progress in our understanding of them in a whole motley of strategic ways, by case studies that best exhibit salient properties, trace the outer boundaries of the problem space, track the central cluster of "family resemblances" that seem to characterize the problem, entertain candidate explanations that are closer or further away, etc. Essentially a practical attitude.

I don't doubt in principle that we could arrive at such a thing as a definition that satisfies most people, but I suspect you're more likely to have that at the end than the beginning.

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#268

Human beings can, in fact, learn to echolocate, and they seem to experience it as vision, supported by their own descriptions and by fMRIs showing the visual cortex lighting up. I'm not going to try to draw any inferences about consciousness from these facts. I'll leave that to others. https://www.npr.org/programs/invisibilia/378577902/how-to-be...

It makes sense given that we are just receiving light waves instead of sound. Light waves contain way more information but your brain would still come up with some kind of "visualization" based on the info. I didn't listen to the program but he might just see blobs of varying sizes instead of any kind of detailed image.

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#269
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoheartedly agree. I think what they're stressing though if I'm understanding correctly, is we do kind of start in a Cartesian space, and branch out via inferences to the presumption of an external world. And, from a certain philosophical perspective, one could point to that and insist that at any moment that connection could be the weak link that brings all of epistemology crashing down. We could get unhooked from…

See their comment just above where they say "I'm afraid the physicalist position is absolutely impossible." ... it's the worst argued rubbish imaginable.

The UMD paper you link to elsewhere describes the central proposition of mind-brain identity physicalism as follows:

> a pain or a thought is (is identical with) some state of the brain or central nervous system

or

> ‘pain’ doesn’t mean ‘such-and-such a stimulation of the neural fibers’... yet, for all that, the two terms in fact refer to the very same thing." [emphasis in original]

(If you search for this second sentence and see it in context, you will see that substituting 'thought' for 'pain' is a fair reflection of the document's position.)

But this is problematic. Consider the following:

1. Thoughts are, at least sometimes, about reality.

2. My thought in some way refers to the object of that thought. Otherwise, I am not thinking about the thing I purport to be thinking about, and (1) is false.

3. That reference is not limited to my subjective, conscious experience of that thought, but is an inherent property of the thought itself. Otherwise, again, (1) is false.

4. Physicalism says the word "thought" and the phrase "a particular stimulation of neural fibers" refer to the same thing (from document above).

5. "A particular stimulation of neural fibers" does not refer to any object outside itself. Suppose I'm thinking about a tiger. You cannot analyze a neural state with a brain scan and find a reference to a tiger. You will see a bunch of chemical and electrical states, nothing more. You will not see the object of the thought.

6. But a thought must refer to its object, given 2 and 3. So "thought" and "particular stimulation of neural fibers" cannot refer to the same thing. (I will grant, and it is my position, that the latter is part of the former, but physicalism identifies the two.)

This seems to imply physicalism is false.

What step am I going wrong on?

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid the physicalist position is absolutely impossible. When I think about something, I'm thinking about something different from the brain state that represents it. There is nothing difficult or subtle about this: if I think about a tiger, I am not thinking about a brain state that is associated therewith. The physicalist position wants to reduce the mental to the physical. My thought cannot be reduced from th…

You aren't even wrong, thoughts are fantasy indeed, and imaginary tiger doesn't have a literal physical existence, because it's, well, imaginary, it only has existence in imagination. And this theory matches observation.

Here's what I just posted to the other person. Perhaps you can tell me where I'm going wrong, because it seems to me that physicalism is impossible.

The UMD paper you link to elsewhere describes the central proposition of mind-brain identity physicalism as follows:

> a pain or a thought is (is identical with) some state of the brain or central nervous system

or

> ‘pain’ doesn’t mean ‘such-and-such a stimulation of the neural fibers’... yet, for all that, the two terms in fact refer to the very same thing." [emphasis in original]

(If you search for this second sentence and see it in context, you will see that substituting 'thought' for 'pain' is a fair reflection of the document's position.)

But this is problematic. Consider the following:

1. Thoughts are, at least sometimes, about reality.

2. My thought in some way refers to the object of that thought. Otherwise, I am not thinking about the thing I purport to be thinking about, and (1) is false.

3. That reference is not limited to my subjective, conscious experience of that thought, but is an inherent property of the thought itself. Otherwise, again, (1) is false.

4. Physicalism says the word "thought" and the phrase "a particular stimulation of neural fibers" refer to the same thing (from document above).

5. "A particular stimulation of neural fibers" does not refer to any object outside itself. Suppose I'm thinking about a tiger. You cannot analyze a neural state with a brain scan and find a reference to a tiger. You will see a bunch of chemical and electrical states, nothing more. You will not see the object of the thought.

6. But a thought must refer to its object, given 2 and 3. So "thought" and "particular stimulation of neural fibers" cannot refer to the same thing. (I will grant, and it is my position, that the latter is part of the former, but physicalism identifies the two.)

This seems to imply physicalism is false.

What step am I going wrong on?

Post reply on HN