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Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

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Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#261

Post by vl »

sershe wrote: post #70
AnotherGoodName wrote: post #11

This was called the TLM role at google. Technical Lead/Manager. You were expected to code and manage a couple of more junior engineers. It’s part of an effort to have dedicated managers and dedicated engineers instead of hybrid roles. This is being sold as an efficiency win for the sake of the stock price but it’s really just moved a few people around with the TLMs now 100% focused on programming.

Not at Google but I'm in such a role right now and I really dislike it. Can't really get much focused coding in because you constantly have to jump in to review something or help fix something or handle a live site juniors cannot handle, or update some TPS report on what everyone is doing, or some PowerPoint or whatever. I dislike all of these to start with, but getting my own (expected) features in is an exercise in…

I just structure my time Monday-Wed-Fri meetings, Tue-Thu no meetings coding. Yes, sometimes non-urgent things have to wait a day.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#262

Post by lovich »

sokoloff wrote: post #220
lovich wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The article is mostly about first level managers Maybe for faangs. At every company I have worked at with a manger title from 2019 to present, this was expected of people with "director" in their title and below. You are not a manager if you do not get to decide where capital is deployed, without your boss's approval. For anyone reading this comment, if you think you are a manager, ask yourself this question "If I d…

I think the common vernacular for that cutoff is “director” rather than “manager”. Directors direct (including opening hiring reqs without higher-level approval). Managers manage (which doesn’t include unreviewed role openings). Both do useful work in a well-functioning company.

You do not manage if you do not have agency. Modern day “managers” are supervisors making sure their directors or executives management plans are going according to plan, and if anything requiring money or headcount is needed to get the plan back on track, once again the director or executive needs to make that decision.

I was not joking about the roles having less agency than a Walmart deli supervisor. I had more say in how the work was done in that role, than I have at any software company while I had the word “managers” in my title

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#263

Post by duxup »

bsenftner wrote: post #47

Next up: super frustrated ex-google PMs complaining "that's not how it's done at Google" at their new jobs.

Lotta folks out there are heavily invested in "process" to the point that they can't see anything outside process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTuLbiIVDpk

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#264

Post by moandcompany »

moandcompany wrote: post #142
BobbyTables2 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell, I’d happily be Lundberg for $1.3M/year. Shoot, I’d probably even do it for just $1.0M — and the Bobs would be pleased! It also sounds like the 10x developers are underpaid by a factor of 100!

It's been a few years, but from what I recall, a Principal is a Director-equivalent (L8) level. The prior poster is missing the L7 tier, which is Senior Staff Engineering Manager for the Engineering Manager Ladder. L8 is a Director on the Engineering Manager Ladder L8 is a Principal on the Software Engineer (SWE) Ladder. Tech-Lead Managers (TL/M or TLMs) were on the SWE Ladder. For reference: Software Engineer Ladder…

Adding a correction on above ->

L7 is Senior Staff Engineering Manager (M2)

L6 is Staff Engineering Manager (M1)

they are of equal level to the SWE ladder L6 and L7 titles

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#265

Post by moandcompany »

jll29 wrote: post #234
moandcompany wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been a few years, but from what I recall, a Principal is a Director-equivalent (L8) level. The prior poster is missing the L7 tier, which is Senior Staff Engineering Manager for the Engineering Manager Ladder. L8 is a Director on the Engineering Manager Ladder L8 is a Principal on the Software Engineer (SWE) Ladder. Tech-Lead Managers (TL/M or TLMs) were on the SWE Ladder. For reference: Software Engineer Ladder…

One of the problems is that large corporations have such complicated role structures, and another problem is that they are also different from all other large corporations. A third problem is that the compensation models are again vastly different. A fourth problem is that they change over time. All of this means as an individual you suffer from extreme information asymmetry. Even if you got two offers from two diffe…

Google and Meta/Facebook have generally aligned and numerically equivalent levels for the main Software Engineer and Engineering Manager ladders.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#266

Post by thevillagechief »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #258
DanielHB wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see 100s-1000+ people work on software product development and very little happen with the product for YEARS while there are tons of obvious (to me) improvements possible I worked in an org with about 60 engineers all working on the same product and I have to actively _not_ fix small issues to keep my sanity. Whenever I see a small issue I would have: 0) If it changes anything visible to the user discuss it with…

Thanks. This explains Android. Because the only other explanation would be no dev at Google actually uses it day to day as their phone because it has so many dumb little infuriating things. Example: Why does my kitchen bluetooth, that I connect to the most, and that I am located nearest to, always go to the bottom of my bluetooth list, meaning I can't select from the quick screen and have to unlock and pull up anothe…

I see your Android, I raise you a google home speaker. Please someone help me understand, why is it a freaking pain to use these speakers with bluetooth? Why can I not use them as output for the tv? Is the audio lag just an artificial limitation? I got them assuming they were bluetooth speakers with the Assistant and streaming stuff. But apparently not. Which sick product manager came up with that?

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#267

Post by Anon1096 »

jll29 wrote: post #234
moandcompany wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been a few years, but from what I recall, a Principal is a Director-equivalent (L8) level. The prior poster is missing the L7 tier, which is Senior Staff Engineering Manager for the Engineering Manager Ladder. L8 is a Director on the Engineering Manager Ladder L8 is a Principal on the Software Engineer (SWE) Ladder. Tech-Lead Managers (TL/M or TLMs) were on the SWE Ladder. For reference: Software Engineer Ladder…

One of the problems is that large corporations have such complicated role structures, and another problem is that they are also different from all other large corporations. A third problem is that the compensation models are again vastly different. A fourth problem is that they change over time. All of this means as an individual you suffer from extreme information asymmetry. Even if you got two offers from two diffe…

This is not really an accurate representation of FAANG hiring and job searching. In reality, there is a very very high amount of job hopping and also connections to people at other FAANGs (and there's also levels.fyi and blind) so we're well aware of comp structures, what employment agreements, levels, etc are across companies and how to compare then. There's very little information asymmetry in fact people go into negotiations with recruiters very well equipped, far better than at small companies.

> BTW, has anyone got a leaked (anonymized) copy of FAANG employment contracts so one can compare the various clauses across employers, and track changes of their standard templates over time

If this doesn't exist it's only because it's incredibly uninteresting. levels.fyi will tell you all you need to know. (also they aren't employment contracts, in the US we do agreements because we're at-will)

I've hopped multiple FAANG+s now across my career.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#268

Post by thevillagechief »

kelnos wrote: post #177
xenotux wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TLM roles are a trap, but not in that sense. There's no expectation that you do two jobs at once. It's just a way to ease unsuspecting engineers into management. If you don't suck at management, your team inevitably grows (or you're handed over other teams), and before long, you're managing full-time. Which means that there are three type of people who remain TLMs in the long haul: those who suck at management; those…

> There's no expectation that you do two jobs at once. I laughed out loud when I read this. I've never seen anyone at any company in a hybrid tech/manager role that wasn't expected to do two jobs at once. Or at least they felt like they were, which is still the same problem. 80% coding & 80% management for that role sounds about right.

This is true for EMs at my company. They are pretty heavily technical, with full manager responsibilities. I honestly always assumed that's what EMs were.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#269

Post by fair_enough »

I don't see how Google employees can stomach all the bureaucracy and internal drama of publicly-traded corporate politics for more than about 2 years before taking their "fuck you" money and retiring.

I'm under the impression this is not a popular opinion around these parts, but the barrage of internal-use acronyms for job titles and gleeful posts pedantically explaining their meaning makes working there sound like absolute hell.

Re: Google has eliminated 35% of managers overseeing small teams in past year

#270

Post by [deleted] »

kelnos wrote: post #175
B-Con wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GOOG has made a systemic push to eliminate the role starting ~3 years ago. At that time my M was a staff level IC TLM with 4 reports who was forcibly converted to EM. In those last 3 years I've only seen TLMs used to assist an overloaded EM. The pattern I've seen is something like: Principal EM |- Staff EM (7 reports, project A) |- Staff EM (8 reports, project B) |- Staff IC (projects A, B, C) |- Senior IC (projects…

Wait, so you have ICs who work on multiple projects, and report to a different manager depending on the project? That sounds like a nightmare. Having one manager to manage is usually enough work...

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