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Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

falkvinge.net

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Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but if you, specifically outlaw murdering me, this will surely draw attention at my person and might harm me. You might be outraged, but you should only be confined to measures that 1) are proven to work, and 2) can be enforced consistently. It looks like a law against abortion does not usually work: abortion is illegal in africa but they do much more abortions per one person than in europe where it is generall…

Those positions aren't mutually exclusive. There are plenty of pro-life people who work on the demand side of the abortion scenario, it's not all clinic bombers, even though they are the most newsworthy.

I have nothing against people who oppose abortion by helping people.

I have everything against people who oppose abortion by trying to send people to prison, as if it helped.

Organized religions fall in the latter bucket.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#262
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has more to do with old farming lifestyles and young marriages. Colorado and I believe Kansas have the same clauses.

That's false. Statutory rape does not apply to married couples, and minors can get married with parental consent and / or a court order. I'd also call bullshit on this anecdote and most of the ones in this thread: the most common age of consent in the US is 16, not 18 and specifically, in Texas, it's 17, meaning that there are two different ways that this particular story doesn't add up.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I didn't mean to say this is used to cover young married couples, I meant to say that because these frontier states have histories of young marriages, that they have liberal laws in regards to age of consent.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wasn't what the previous commenter was saying at all, they said both 'probably' happen at the same time. It's a classic example of a contradiction used to hide cognitive dissonance, and being used to reinforce each other when they should cancel out. Women are empowered creatures who are just as capable as men, but also horribly oppressed and in need of special consideration. Socialist ideology is dangerous and a…

>Women are empowered creatures who are just as capable as men, but also horribly oppressed and in need of special consideration. Great point, but I don't see the dissonance here - partially because I don't understand the phrase "empowered creatures." To say that women are just as capable as men, yet are horribly oppressed and in need for special consideration to offset that seems to lack any contradiction at all.

Empowered is the opposite of oppressed.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#264
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. In a functional society the district attorney would decline to prosecute as there is no benefit to society in going after a public urinator, streaker, or sexting teenage couple. But here in the US a politician has to be "tough on crime" or work for the "benefit of the children".

True, however, most prosecutors are trying to get high conviction rates, and don't care about the good to society.

Wouldn't that deter prosecutors from going after relatively minor crimes that are less likely to lead to a conviction?

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#265
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you look from another angle - why should cocaine possession be illegal at all? Cocaine seems (to me) to be somewhat less severe drug than, say, alcohol. Same applies to child porn. A lot of stuff qualifies as child porn recently, including stuff originally not meant to be any kind of porn neither produced with any harm to kids. Unless child porn prosecution proponents can limit themself with some strict defini…

Drug prohibition is a different issue. Yes, there are cases of things which are not child porn in spirit, however its important to remember that there are things that are actual child porn. There are pictures of young children and toddlers and babies being raped. We don't see them in the mass media, because they are disgusting, but they exist. Don't forget that creating this pictures is probably one of the most horri…

Okay, but how does it justify criminalizing 16 years old taking shots of themselves?

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#266
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one should have to watch this stuff. But even more important, no one should _want_ to watch this stuff. The question is: Why do people want to watch violence and murder? People are morbid. People are curious. People want to see things that push the boundaries, that are rare, that few others have seen. I think there's a really important analogy to be drawn between videos of this nature and child pornography. It s…

I think you are making an assumption that I am suggesting there's a link between what people watch and what they do. I would expect that such assumptions would be made. It is an issue that is debated ad nauseum. No surprise you brought it up. But I am not suggesting that, nor am I contemplating that issue. I am merely suggesting there indeed appears to be strong "market" for watching violence and murder, whether it i…

> I am merely suggesting there indeed appears to be strong "market" for watching violence and murder, whether it is Hollywood or whether it is for real. And I might hope that the reader would question why that market exists. Issues of whether or how it should be "regulated" are besides the point. The question I'm asking is: Why do people want to watch such things to begin with?

Why do people want to watch gore videos? For the reasons I just listed. Morbidity, curiosity, etc. I'm sure there are a few other reasons besides these.

All valid reasons why a reasonable, sane person might want to view such videos. I suppose you could say this creates a "market". In the case of gore videos, I would contend this market extends only so far as some (not all) people in possession of existing gore videos deciding to make them public on the Internet.

In other words, the market fuels the propagation of existing material, but not necessarily the creation of new material.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#267

There's a lot of food for thought here, and important points. But in one area, the author completely glosses over a crucial distinction: > why is it only documentation of sex crimes against minors that are being banned in this way? The lawmen are perfectly fine with a video documenting how a teenager is being stabbed with a screwdriver in both eyes, then murdered. ... why is the ban just related to anything sexual, a…

Shock video sites that feature murders, dismemberment and other forms of crime on video for voyeuristic pleasure are a pretty big business. Perhaps not as big as child pornography woud be/is, but big enough that your distinction is a bit questionable. Further, videos of people getting murdered raise enough of an outcry that they get investigated/prosecuted much harder. Instances of child molestation are hidden, so th…

No they aren't.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should be satisfied if it comes at no harm to others and the alternative is harming others. Isn't that kind of a no-brainer?

The question is why ? "It's ok to picture murdering your entire family over dinner with a fork, as long as you don't really do it". Not, it's not ok. Why would you want to accept and encourage behavior that is not sane?

Yes, it is ok.

If the only thing stopping me from doing horrible things was that I haven't yet imagined doing them, then I and everyone around me should be terrified of me. Fortunately, my self-control seems to be a little stronger than that. Though it is not helpful for everyone to be told by implication that they have permanently terrible self-control (or any similar implication). [1] Fortunately I seem pretty good at dealing with such implications, although I am less confident about other people.

(Some articles have repeatedly appeared on HN, to the effect that when gifted kids are taught that "gifted" is an unchangeable property of a person and has nothing to do with gaining skill by repeatedly playing with something, they tend to stop putting a serious effort into doing anything new and challenging--for fear they'll screw up and have to accept they're not "gifted"--and so they tend to stop or severely restrict their mental growth, becoming rather less "gifted". Now imagine how this applies to self-control.)

I just did picture murdering my family over dinner with a fork. I decided the idea holds no attraction to me, and is pretty stupid. I am not worried about deciding to do it in the foreseeable future. Feel free to explain how this situation is not ok.

(Nor do I think the idea will repeatedly come back to me in the future and I'll panic and try to think about anything but it, and only end up thinking more about it, until I lose sight of anything else and just do it because I don't know what else to try. --I have the impression, from some books I've read, that that's one way some initially sane people end up doing crazy things. In this scenario, the panic is obviously an exacerbating factor, and it stems from the belief that "I'm thinking about something horrible [or have been thinking about it for what seems a long time]" => "There's something wrong with me and I won't be able to stop".

My solution is contempt for that belief, and for other people who believe it. Like, possibly, you. (This should be combined with some sort of escape valve--if you conclude that everyone else sucks, you need some way to deal with that, and if you don't have such a way, then you may start panicking if you come close to thinking that everyone else sucks. I just assume that, no matter how high a percentage of other people appear to suck, there are people like me, and eventually we'll get together and make a good society). Meanwhile I have contempt for the horrible idea, because it is not special amongst the many other horrible ideas--let's imagine them!--and if I were vulnerable to doing them, then I'd probably have done one of them already, which I haven't. And in the unlikely event that I do keep thinking of it a lot, my working hypothesis will be that it's just self-caused by anxiety foisted on me by taking seriously, on some level, the words of people like you. ...I have read of a case where someone said that he did keep having murderous thoughts, and that this coincided with the development of a tumor in his brain; I guess it might be possible that the latter could cause the former somehow, though now that I know of this, I would still not panic, or if I did it'd be about cancer, not about the murderous thoughts. A brain tumor with such specialized effects seems very unlikely in any case.)

Anyway. This little exercise, picturing your scenario, reinforced my confidence in my sanity and my ability to decide not to do other horrible things. I'd say the experience was positive for me. So, why? There you have one answer: an exercise to prove one's sanity. (Again, I do not respect someone who would do horrible things and just doesn't because he hasn't thought of them yet. I would hope such a person would learn and grow stronger than that.)

And there are use cases for putting detailed, horrible, evil things into media productions--not breaking reader's immersion, teaching people about their vulnerabilities so they can protect themselves, and sheer enjoyment for other reasons I'm not sure of. I wrote up a couple of examples, but they made the comment too long, so here's just one, which I write about because it's fun:

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In this clip from the anime series Death Note, the main character Light Yagami, who (unbeknownst to anyone else) is the evil killer Kira, confronts Naomi Misora, a former CIA agent and the fiancee of an FBI agent whom Kira recently killed. She has some very compromising information about Kira that she intends to bring to the police; Light wants to kill her to prevent this, and he needs to learn her real name to kill her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1ISK8Z0gN4&t=8s

Light lies to her, learns some personal details about her, compliments her, learns more details, learns that she trusts him (for the wrong reasons); exploits her trust and what she's told him to make her a (completely fake) offer he knows she'll really want; pretends to back off from it to avoid suspicion (while continuing to compliment her and extend the offer); and adds a comment ("But you're young and beautiful... don't risk your life for this") that sounds like more backpedaling, but which he knows will actually bring out her fierce loyalty to her fiance's memory and induce her to say yes. She accepts, and tells him her real name; he writes it in his Death Note (pretending it's a normal notebook) and kills her, making her jump in a river so it looks like suicide.

I consider this pure evil--in particular, noticing her admirable qualities of trust and loyalty and determination, and making them work against her; and conducting the whole conversation with a straight face until he kills her. I also find it kind of beautiful. Meanwhile, I would be repulsed at the thought of me or someone else actually doing this sort of thing (I'll classify it as "observing and manipulating someone through conversation to get them to give you what you need, then seriously harming them") to someone I knew.

What is the value of my seeing things like this? Well, I don't expect to understand fundamental reasons why I like things, but I can make up guesses, and an obvious one here is: Knowing an archetype of pure evil, I can be better prepared to deal in real life with examples of impure evil that approach the archetype to varying degrees. (Also the pattern-matching part of my brain will be more likely to notice if I start doing things that approach evil. Also, it might help me understand other people's reactions if I unintentionally do things that look like evil. Though, for the record, looking like evil is not evil, and using force to stop or punish someone who merely looks like evil is unjustified.)

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I'm glad Falkvinge is addressing this issue. It had to be done, sooner or later. And he makes a powerful case--especially section 2, I dunno about section 1. (I'm impressed... I know of the "humanitarian with the guillotine" pattern, where a naive, doesn't-examine-the-secondary-consequences-before-acting, but generally goodhearted politician makes a well-intentioned law that ends up hurting people more than it helps. I'm familiar with the mental tool of imagining that a law was made maliciously, to figure out what the bad consequences might be. But I keep being faced with the conclusion that it's more than a mental exercise: that all pieces of legislation were in fact originally put forth by people with anti-social intentions.)

[1] John Holt explains, with several examples, how some groups of people (but not others!) have come to think that children are reckless and uncoordinated and dangerous to themselves and others, and how their resulting treatment of children causes children to exhibit exactly those traits, in ways they do not when they are not so treated. http://pastebin.com/LkBd4VhN

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#269
post #157
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Who is harmed by "virtual child porn"?

I suppose that you don't believe in brainwashing either. You do not believe that something that we watch continually can change our thoughts or habits. The lines between fantasy and reality never blur for some people right? You don't believe that the human mind can be influenced to believe something that it never believed before or to stop believing something. Evil thoughts or ideas cannot be put into our head that were not there before right?

I don't know if you are just playing devil's advocate here or if you are really that ignorant to how what is fed into our minds shape who we are, our convictions, our desires, our conscience. How is shapes our perception of our reality(or lack thereof). How self diluted humans can easily be.

If you really are serious than let me just tell you that I am deeply sickened by you and anyone like you.

Re: Rick Falkvinge: Why free speech is harmed by the ban on child porn

#270
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the concern isn't about satiating the pedophile's need; it's about the pedophile becoming desensitized and eventually normalized to the thought of having sex with a child. They experience "loli" or virtual children, and that would be the gateway to real ones. If you're talking about a trained psychologist prescribing the material to a pedophile, that would be fine, but the vibe I'm getting from this discussion…

I guess by now we are so desensitised to murder and violence by watching action movies and playing video games that it became normal activity for us?

It has for some... It is pretty easy to find stories and interviews online where this is the case.

Not everyone is affected the same by the same stimuli, but some are affected deeply.

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