Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 354 posts

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#261

Post by brrrrrm »

registeredcorn wrote: post #257
brrrrrm wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't deny that (and probably should have caveated this in my OP), but compared to a basketball or football team, the benefit of smart play doesn't seem as significant compared to doping up and pressing hard.

>the benefit of smart play doesn't seem as significant compared to doping up and pressing hard. For the athlete, or for the team? For professional racing strategy is in the hands of the team members on the sidelines - it's less of a team sport (as in athlete) and more of a group sport (as in information parity.) Whether it's motor races or TdF, there's a significant number of factors to consider. What you are going t…

sure, numerous examples can be shown to say smart play does help. but, would you argue the net benefits of smart play are identical between a sport like basketball and racing?

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#262

Post by seplox »

alistairSH wrote: post #250
Aperocky wrote: post #211

Occams Razor says no. A proper ebike won't stand a chance against the modern queen stage of the tour de france, even if ridden by a professional with appropriate gears otherwise, because the battery would run out half way on the first HC and it would just be a very heavy bike for the rest of the stage. Same with a tiny motor - you gain tiny amount of force but you'll have to carry a full bidon with you on all the cli…

You wouldn't necessarily use mechanical doping to win the general classification, or even a particular stage. More likely, you'd use it on select stages for very specific reasons... for example, a rider could use it to avoid the time cut on an ITT stage (effectively getting extra rest vs their competitors). Similarly, a pure sprinter could use it to stay in contention on a punchy "sprint" stage (like a stage that Mvd…

If I were responsible for a mechanical doping program, then I'd install the motors for the leadout and mountain domestique riders and leave the team leader clean. Who cares if they pay the weight penalty after peeling off if it means that they can provide extra support for those critical minutes?

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#263

Post by cogman10 »

Aperocky wrote: post #247
cogman10 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bikes have a weight regulation that was set in the 90s, 6.8kg. Ultra light bikes can be as light weight as 2.7kg. That gives 4kg to hide a battery and motor and still hit weight. A really good lithium battery offers 350 Wh/kg. 1kWh can grant 100 miles of range by itself.

That weight comes obvious in components. All teams are required to use widely available components and it's quite easy to spot one that's not normal. For the bike builds that are 4kg or even less, it's quite obvious that all components are non-standard. You can save at max a bidon before rousing suspicion, and the whole operation is just not feasible in terms of cost vs. benefit.

> the whole operation is just not feasible in terms of cost vs. benefit.

Batteries and a motor are a huge benefit. Even if you can't squeeze in a full blown motor or 1kwh of battery, just getting an additional 200 or 300 kwh of assist in can make a huge difference.

As for cost, these guys are already doing crazy things like blood doping just to get a tiny edge.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#264

Post by marklubi »

stockresearcher wrote: post #164
le-mark wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in a shop that sold LeMond bikes back in the 90s. Iirc they were generally a chromolly lugged frame. At the time a lot of the high end bikes were the same. Are these not common nowadays?

No idea about date ranges, but they were using Reynolds 853 and TT OX Platinum. Very high quality steel, and not something you’d get on anything mass market https://frugalaveragebicyclist.com/2022/05/15/guide-to-vinta...

That Reynolds 853... drool. When I raced mountain bikes a couple decades ago, that was what my hardtail was made of. Just 20.5 lbs for a steel frame bike was nuts at the time, and that bike was a rocket ship.

Still have it. My son wanted to try it one day, his response was "that bike wants to go fast"

Edit: I also had aluminum (too stiff) and titanium frames (too flexible, or floppy as I called it). The 853 was excellent

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#265

Post by phtrivier »

Best summary ever for the TdF: [1]

Kidding aside, this is one of those fields where I don't know how to use Occam's Razor.

Given the fact: "in a sport that is mostly about physical capacity, some racers now routinely achieve better performances than racers that where dopped, but excaped controls, 20 years ago".

What is the explanation that requires the less priors:

* some teams have perfected training regimen, equipment quality, etc... in order to make the same performance today, but without doping (something that never happened)

* some teams have found another way to escape controls (something that happened in the past)

So of course, "Past does not predict the future", it's unfair to accuse without proofs, etc... And maybe the performances have improved dramatically in other sports (surely the number of goals scored in football is increasing exponentially, etc... ?)

I have to give Pogacar credit for one thing: he knew that things were getting really suspicious, and he had the sportmanship to let other people win a couple of stages.

I really wonder how long it will take for the case to be settled !

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVB7OX0Oa-Q

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#266

Post by david-gpu »

cvwright wrote: post #210
david-gpu wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is actually a lot of strategy in road cycling. Remember for one thing that there are teams -- ask yourself why is that.

But like Jorgenson said this year, there’s no tactics that can beat Pogi going up a steep hill at 7w/kg. At some point it all comes down to power to weight.

Did tactics have anything to do with how Pogi lost the 2022 TdF on stage 11?

More generally, there is a lot more to each stage and to the race as a whole than the general classification.

If power to weight is all we cared about, we could rank all riders based on their power curve as measured on an indoor trainer and call it a day.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#268

Post by rsingel »

stockresearcher wrote: post #142
IncreasePosts wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's what people said about him when he was speaking against doping in the late 90s/early 2000s too. Remember when he was forced to issue an apology to Lance Armstrong for calling out his relationship with Dr. Ferrari(doping connoisseur)?

It’s too bad LeMond sold his bike company to Trek. I have a small collection of American-made bikes. Every single one of the brands was acquired by Trek and then shut down a few years later… The LeMond is probably my favorite. Great geometry, great road feel, and a fantastic paint job. I put some new wheels on it this spring and it gives it such a rad look. Totally modern and retro at the same time. Such a bike would…

I had the Schwinn equivalent - a 2001 Peloton with 853 steel - basically the last good Schwinn ever made. That bike was so much fun and it loved climbing.

Just sold it this summer. The geometry is just too tight for me now and couldn't support tires wider than a 28.

Re: Tour de France confronts a new threat: Are cyclists using tiny motors?

#269

Post by cvwright »

peter422 wrote: post #214
cvwright wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But like Jorgenson said this year, there’s no tactics that can beat Pogi going up a steep hill at 7w/kg. At some point it all comes down to power to weight.

Stage 21 was a great example of how tactics can beat a stronger rider. Pogacar was probably the strongest but Matteo burned up his energy chasing attacks in the final lap and then at the right moment WvA was ready to pounce and take the stage.

Sure it was great to see Wout win again - in Paris no less! And it does kind of validate the TVL strategy of “wear Pogi out with 3 super hard weeks of racing.”

Unfortunately for them it just wasn’t enough to make the difference in the GC.

Post reply on HN