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Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

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Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#261

Post by kossae »

overgard wrote: post #247
dakiol wrote: post #25

> Gemini 2.5 PRO | Claude Opus 4 Whether it's vibe coding, agentic coding, or copy pasting from the web interface to your editor, it's still sad to see the normalization of private (i.e., paid) LLM models. I like the progress that LLMs introduce and I see them as a powerful tool, but I cannot understand how programmers (whether complete nobodies or popular figures) dont mind adding a strong dependency on a third part…

I think it's an unlikely future. What I think is more likely is people will realize that every line of code written is, to an extent, a liability, and generating massive amounts of sloppy insecure poorly performing code is a massive liability. That's not to say that AI's will go away, obviously, but I think when the hype dies down and people get more accustomed to what these things can and can't do well we'll have a…

The point on investment is apt. Even if they achieve twice as much as they’re able to today (some doubts amongst experts here), when the VC funding dries up we’ve seen what happens. It’s time to pay the piper. The prices rise to Enterprise-plan amounts, and companies start making much more real ROI decisions on these tools past the hype bubble. Will be interesting to see how that angle plays out. I’m no denier nor booster, but in the capitalist society these things inevitably balance out.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#262

Post by brokencode »

cratermoon wrote: post #58
brokencode wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it even more sad when people come out of the woodwork on every LLM post to tell us that our positive experiences using LLMs are imagined and we just haven’t realized how bad they are yet.

We don't just tell you they were imagined, we can provide receipts. https://metr.org/blog/2025-07-10-early-2025-ai-experienced-o...

Certainly an interesting result, but remember that a single paper doesn’t prove anything. This will no doubt be something studied very extensively and change over time as tools develop.

Personally, I find the current tools don’t work great for large existing codebases and complex tasks. But I’ve found they can help me quickly make small scripts to save me time.

I know, it’s not the most glamorous application, but it’s what I find useful today. And I have confidence the tools will continue to improve. They hardly even existed a few years ago.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#263

Post by ketzo »

smallerize wrote: post #213
simonw wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The models I can run locally aren't as good yet, and are way more expensive to operate. Once it becomes economical to run a Claude 4 class model locally you'll see a lot more people doing that. The closest you can get right now might be Kimi K2 on a pair of 512GB Mac Studios, at a cost of about $20,000.

I don't have to actually run it locally to remove lock-in. Several cloud providers offer full DeepSeek R1 or Kimi K2 for $2-3/million output tokens.

In what ways is that better for you than using eg Claude? Aren’t you then just “locked in” to having a cloud provider which offers those models cheaply?

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#264

Post by libraryofbabel »

thefourthchime wrote: post #259
wg0 wrote: post #258

I don't understand. Is author suggesting manually pasting redis C files into Gemini Pro chat window on the web?

I was mostly nodding my head until he got to this part. The fundamental requirement for the LLM to be used is: don’t use agents or things like editor with integrated coding agents. So right, is he like actually copying and pasting stuff into a chat window? I did this before Co-Pilot, but with cursor I would never think of doing that. He never mentioned Cursor or Claude Code so I wonder if he's even experienced it.

Right, this didn’t make much sense to me either. Who’d still recommend copy-and-paste-into-chat coding these days with Claude Code and similar agents available? I wonder if he’s got agents / IDEs like windsurf, copilot, cursor etc where there is more complexity between you and the frontier LLM and various tricks to minimize token use. Claude Code, Gemini CLI etc aren’t like that and will just read in whole files into the context so that the LLM can see everything, which I think achieves what he wants but with all the additional magic of agents like edits, running tests, etc. as well.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#265

Post by zackify »

QRY wrote: post #193
simonw wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The models I can run locally aren't as good yet, and are way more expensive to operate. Once it becomes economical to run a Claude 4 class model locally you'll see a lot more people doing that. The closest you can get right now might be Kimi K2 on a pair of 512GB Mac Studios, at a cost of about $20,000.

Have you considered the Framework Desktop setup they mentioned in their announcement blog post[0]? Just marketing fluff, or is there any merit to it? > The top-end Ryzen AI Max+ 395 configuration with 128GB of memory starts at just $1999 USD. This is excellent for gaming, but it is a truly wild value proposition for AI workloads. Local AI inference has been heavily restricted to date by the limited memory capacity an…

The memory bandwidth is crap and you’ll never run anything close to Claude on that unfortunately. They should have shipped something 8x faster at least 2 tb/s bandwidth

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#266

Post by smcleod »

QRY wrote: post #193
simonw wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The models I can run locally aren't as good yet, and are way more expensive to operate. Once it becomes economical to run a Claude 4 class model locally you'll see a lot more people doing that. The closest you can get right now might be Kimi K2 on a pair of 512GB Mac Studios, at a cost of about $20,000.

Have you considered the Framework Desktop setup they mentioned in their announcement blog post[0]? Just marketing fluff, or is there any merit to it? > The top-end Ryzen AI Max+ 395 configuration with 128GB of memory starts at just $1999 USD. This is excellent for gaming, but it is a truly wild value proposition for AI workloads. Local AI inference has been heavily restricted to date by the limited memory capacity an…

The framework desktop isn't really that compelling for work with LLMs, it's memory bandwidth is very low compared to GPUs and Apple Silicon Max/Ultra chips - you'd really notice how slow LLMs are on it to the point of frustration. Even a 2023 Macbook Pro with a M2 Max chip has twice the usable bandwidth.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#267

Post by viraptor »

ketzo wrote: post #263
smallerize wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have to actually run it locally to remove lock-in. Several cloud providers offer full DeepSeek R1 or Kimi K2 for $2-3/million output tokens.

In what ways is that better for you than using eg Claude? Aren’t you then just “locked in” to having a cloud provider which offers those models cheaply?

Any provider can run Kimi (including yourself if you would get enough use out of it), but only one can run Claude.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#268

Post by viraptor »

zer00eyz wrote: post #228
esafak wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Model efficiency is outpacing Moore's law. That's what DeepSeek V3 was about. It's just we're simultaneously finding ways to use increase model capacity, and that's growing even faster...

> Model efficiency is outpacing Moore's law. Moores law is dead, has been for along time. There is nothing to outpace. > That's what DeepSeek V3 was about. This would be a foundational shift! What problem in complexity theory was solved that the rest of computing missed out on? Don't get me wrong MOE is very interesting but breaking up one large model into independent chunks isn't a foundational breakthrough its basi…

> What problem in complexity theory was solved

None. We're still in the "if you spend enough effort you can make things less bad" era of LLMs. It will be a while before we even find out what are the theoretical limits in that area. Everyone's still running on roughly the same architecture after all - big corps haven't even touched recursive LLMs yet!

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#269

Post by torginus »

thefourthchime wrote: post #259
wg0 wrote: post #258

I don't understand. Is author suggesting manually pasting redis C files into Gemini Pro chat window on the web?

I was mostly nodding my head until he got to this part. The fundamental requirement for the LLM to be used is: don’t use agents or things like editor with integrated coding agents. So right, is he like actually copying and pasting stuff into a chat window? I did this before Co-Pilot, but with cursor I would never think of doing that. He never mentioned Cursor or Claude Code so I wonder if he's even experienced it.

I'm a little baby when it comes to Claude Code and agentic AI, that said I was a heavy user of Cursor since it came out, and before agents came out, I had to manually select which files would be included in the prompt of my query.

Now Cursor's agent mode does this for me, but it can be a hit or miss.

Re: Coding with LLMs in the summer of 2025 – an update

#270

Post by theshackleford »

oblio wrote: post #251
__loam wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's being honest, not rude

Honesty doesn't look like this: > [...] get lost [...] > [..] We don't want you to be a part of it either. [...] He's being rude. Honesty would be, something like: > I (and probably many others) like programming a lot. Even if you're frustrated with it, I think a great deal of people will be sad if somehow programming disappeared completely. It might be best for you if you just found a job that you love more, instead…

> Honesty doesn't look like this

Sure it does. Reads incredibly honestly to me.

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