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Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

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Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#261

Post by KerrAvon »

supportengineer wrote: post #184
timr wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about the Ramen place (I can't believe that they wouldn't take cash?), but I agree with you that more places are doing this kind of "two markets" stuff -- it's even becoming official, in that now there's officially sanctioned "foreigner pricing" for certain temples, shrines, and parks. There's also Google Maps and Yelp vs. Japan's local version (pretty much any review on the former two are useless, and h…

Is there any place you can go to avoid Scam culture? Anywhere at all? It seems pervasive. I would like to think there is somewhere in the United States, maybe in the Midwest, or West Virginia, there has to be someplace where there are decent hard-working Americans, who are not trying to scam each other.

West Virginia is a deeply red state; I don't think you want to go there to avoid scams. It's pervasive in the US because the political leadership is all now scam culture, all the time. Trump is, at core, a corrupt, subliterate, small-time real estate huckster. Everybody he's surrounded himself with is either an insincere grifter or severely mentally ill. And they're running the federal government and the red states, and trying to destroy the state governments of the blue ones.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#262

Post by strbean »

SoftTalker wrote: post #213
timr wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I agree that it's a better way to travel if you can do it, but most people can't [1]. That said, even for short-term tourists, Japan used to be kind of a miracle in terms of the quality and service you would get for the money. I know it sounds like hipster whining, but that time is in the past. [1] My snobby hot-take is that if you can't travel this way you shouldn't do recreational international travel at all,…

I fully agree, whirlwind "see the major tourist attractions" sort of travel where you visit someplace for a couple of days or a week is not very interesting to me. Honestly travel in general is not very interesting to me. It's expensive, inconvenient, commoditized, cliche. But especially that sort of travel. I can see taking a break to go somewhere warm if you live in a place with long gloomy winters. Or going somewh…

Even if you're only going somewhere for a week, you don't have to see all the major attractions. You also don't have to plan every moment and research what restaurants to visit etc.

You can set out to discover cool stuff on your own. Walk around a non-touristy neighborhood until you see a restaurant full of locals dining and eat there.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#263

Post by eska »

Tainnor wrote: post #250
impendia wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to live in Japan in 1999-2001, and I was just there again for a month this summer. Anyway, I disagree with you: Japan is still a miracle in terms of the quality and service you get for the money. I saw this many times over. Perhaps not in Kyoto, or in the most touristed areas of Tokyo. Or in whatever random place got featured in some anime, or whatnot. The article mentions Yamaguchi, Toyama, Morioka, etc., and…

The time of the year probably matters too. I didn't find Japan to be terribly overcrowded when I went this February. Certain areas (and the minuscule Kyoto buses) were, but that happens in every tourist location. I also went to places like Beppu or Kagoshima where I barely saw any tourists.

In Beppu you’d mostly find Korean tourists who come by ferry, rather than the wrecking ball tokyo-osaka-kyoto tourists.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#264

Post by mr_toad »

timr wrote: post #177
cultofmetatron wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really miss the days when it was possible to be welcomed pretty much anywhere as a foreigner and have almost universal expectations of high quality, scam-free experiences you can still have that. I'm a fulltime traveller. the key is to stay in a place longer. I usually stay in a country for at least a month. that gives you time to meet and actually get to know locals. thats how you get invited to the really cool…

Yes, I agree that it's a better way to travel if you can do it, but most people can't [1]. That said, even for short-term tourists, Japan used to be kind of a miracle in terms of the quality and service you would get for the money. I know it sounds like hipster whining, but that time is in the past. [1] My snobby hot-take is that if you can't travel this way you shouldn't do recreational international travel at all,…

You’re basically saying that only extroverts are allowed to be tourists.

Fuck that.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#265

Post by strbean »

timr wrote: post #186
esperent wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it still requires advance planning for a place that used to be a casual, walk-in experience So, much like every restaurant that becomes popular, anywhere in the world?

> So, much like every restaurant that becomes popular, anywhere in the world? No, but thanks for the spot-on imitation of an entitled foreign visitor. The insinuation that somehow it's the local people's fault that they don't want their quaint neighborhood restaurants to become McDonald's is indeed part of the problem. Many restaurants in Japan (my friend's included) are quite obviously one-man, standing-room only op…

> No, but thanks for the spot-on imitation of an entitled foreign visitor. The insinuation that somehow it's the local people's fault that they don't want their quaint neighborhood restaurants to become McDonald's is indeed part of the problem.

This seems a little unfair. I think the parent was talking more about restaurants in big cities.

In Tokyo, lines down the block are extremely common, and the lines are primarily Japanese people, not foreigners. Maybe there are Japanese tourists visiting Tokyo, maybe they are Tokyo locals. But it happens with or without foreign tourism.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#266

Post by dvdkon »

keysdev wrote: post #240
paulgerhardt wrote: post #14

Missed opportunity to talk about the locals creative responses to this. One cafe in Tokyo is asking customers to leave negative reviews on Google and Trip Advisor to prevent over exposure (it mostly works but made me curious enough to visit). Another specific $10 Michelin guide ramen restaurant only lets you order from a vending machine outside using a payment method you can’t access as a foreigner (one needs a physi…

Its about time we do that. This look online for good local places to go needs to stop. You either live there for some times and discover the place by getting to know the locals or yeah you just do not get to know the place.

Where does that stop, though? Should people only ever explore their own city? Most people will only be able to move once every few years.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#267

Post by eska »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #227
ponector wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But somehow you can follow rules with signs like "women(men) only". I bet it's easier to follow no tattoo rule.

I mean you can't quickly remove a tattoo or change your gender based on a sign.

You can still get a private onsen room.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#268

Post by raydev »

keysdev wrote: post #119
HelloMcFly wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may deny entry based on your own criteria provided you are not discriminating on race, color, religion, national origin, disability status, veteran status, age (more wiggle room here) or other state-specific traits (sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, marital status, etc.). I don't think there's any place in America that would be illegal to bar entry based on the presence of tattoos.

But no shoes, no shirt, no service is quite common.

Sure, but you can instantly go put on some shoes and a shirt if necessary.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#269

Post by jorvi »

KerrAvon wrote: post #251
gtowey wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worse than that. I'm starting to think that there may not really be an ethical way to be a tourist in a foreign country. Especially coming from a high cost of living area to a lower one. Just being there puts you in economic competition with the locals. You can spend more on everything than everyone else and that raises their costs too. Especially housing and food. Those fancy resorts take all the prime…

It's not quite that simple. Your tourism money is valuable. It's a huge influx of money into the local economy. They don't want it to go to zero.

It literally is quite that simple. I can tell you from experience via friends and acquaintances that tourists are crushing the locals out of Barcelona and Amsterdam. And I expect the same to be true of Warsaw or Berlin.

And its not just tourists. ASML has completely destroyed the housing market in the Brainport region. They're planning to hire 20.000 more people, but with The Netherlands currently being in one of the most severe housing crises in the world, these expats just end up pushing everyone out of the local housing market because they can overbid on houses / rental properties so much.

ASML has woken up to this and is underwriting affordable housing developments, but only at a clip of 1500 per year. So yeah, the locals are not exactly happy, even if it is good for The Netherlands and EU as a whole.

Frankly, I expect the next decade or two to be about harsh protectionism. People are really, really tired of globalisation eating the world.

Re: Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses

#270

Post by majormajor »

gtowey wrote: post #245
timr wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about the Ramen place (I can't believe that they wouldn't take cash?), but I agree with you that more places are doing this kind of "two markets" stuff -- it's even becoming official, in that now there's officially sanctioned "foreigner pricing" for certain temples, shrines, and parks. There's also Google Maps and Yelp vs. Japan's local version (pretty much any review on the former two are useless, and h…

I think it's worse than that. I'm starting to think that there may not really be an ethical way to be a tourist in a foreign country. Especially coming from a high cost of living area to a lower one. Just being there puts you in economic competition with the locals. You can spend more on everything than everyone else and that raises their costs too. Especially housing and food. Those fancy resorts take all the prime…

> Everyone thinks that they are being more respectful than average as a tourist, but the hard truth is that the best thing you can do for these places is to not be there at all.

I think this is definitely not true.

And I think oversaturation generally happens because most people don't think that, or think about it at all. They have a checklist of spots to hit, photos to take, things to eat, and they follow it. They'll put up with huge lines, crazy prices, etc. Overcharging isn't terrible for everyone local, of course, but the crowding certainly changes a place. Often not better for most locals.

If you're trying to be respectful I think that rules out following those huge crowds usually. Like, seeing the Mona Lisa is usually a shitty experience, but at least its in a controlled environment. Visiting a trendy vacation spot like Barcelona, on the other hand, is hitting the whole town and frankly ... maybe not that interesting or novel. There are other places out there, many not even that far away from the hotspots. Though you also need to rein in any instinct to show off any other finds or places online, let the local place you enjoyed become deluged.

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