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AI coding tools can reduce productivity

secondthoughts.ai

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Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#261

Post by bluefirebrand »

SkyPuncher wrote: post #248

One thing I find frustrating with these conversations is the _strict_ focus on single-task productivity. Arguably, on a single coding task, I don't really move that much faster. However, I have much, much more brain capacity left both while coding and when I'm done coding. This has two knock on effects: 1. Most simply, I'm productive for longer. Since LLMs are doing a lot of the heavy lifting, my brain doesn't have t…

> I can do other things while coding

Context shifting while trying to code seems like a bad idea to me

Maybe you're some incredible multi -tasking genius able to change tasks rapidly without losing any of the details, but I suspect if most people tried this workflow they would produce worse code and also whatever their other output is would be low quality too

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#262

Post by bluefirebrand »

thinkingemote wrote: post #99
calrain wrote: post #57

I've been using Claude Code heavily for about 3 months now, and I'm pretty sure I'm between 10 and 20 times more productive while using it. How I measure performance is how many features I can implement in a given period of time. It's nice that people have done studies and have opinions, but for me, it's 10x to 20x better.

I agree I feel more productive. AI tools do actually make it easier and makes my brain use less energy. You would think that would be more productive but maybe it just feels that way. Stage magicians say that the magic is done in the audiences memory after the trick is done. It's the effect of the activity. AI coding tools makes developers happier and able to spend more brain power on actually difficult things. But o…

> AI coding tools makes developers happier and able to spend more brain power on actually difficult things

Please don't speak for all developers when you say stuff like this

AI coding tools make me miserable to use

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#263

Post by Brendinooo »

Jensson wrote: post #256
Brendinooo wrote: post #211

The article brushed aside devs being terrible at estimates, but I dunno. I'm a frontend guy, been using Claude Code for a couple of weeks now. It's been able to speed up some boilerplate, it's sped up a lot of "naming is hard" conversations I like to have (but my coworkers probably don't, lol), it's enabled me to do a lot more stuff in my most recent project. But for a task or two I suspect that it has slowed me down…

> But for a task or two I suspect that it has slowed me down Likely more, as it takes longer for you to activate your brain when your first thought is to ask an LLM rather than solve it yourself. Its like people reaching for a calculator to do 4+5, that doesn't make you faster or more accurate.

Depends on if the problem is 4+5 or something much more complex.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#264

Post by divinelackey »

dmonitor wrote: post #240
A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you touched on an important aspect, but did not explore it further. If we accept that AI is a tool, then then problem is the nature of the tool as it will vary heavily from individual to individual. This partially accounts for the ridiculous differences from self reported accounts of people, who use it on a regular basis. And then, there is a possibility that my questions are not that unusual and/or are well…

The thing about tools is that they need to be predictable. I can't remember the source, but it's a concept I read that really stuck with me. A predictable tool can be used skillfully and accurately because the user can anticipate how it works and deploy it effectively. It will always be aligned with the user intent because the user decides how and when it is used. A tool that constantly adapts to how it is used will…

Sounds to me like you're not describing its limited usefulness in general, you're describing its limited usefulness when as considered a tool.

That might seem like a distinction without a point but people are not tools and people are useful. If someone argues people are tools then they don't fit your definition any more than an LLM does.

LLMs are as useful as people I would say, and as unpredictable. I run a small consulting company and we develop custom software for businesses, government, whomever. I often have to interface with other teams and other people. To get the most out of working with people you have to know how to talk with them.

Also, I noticed you didn't say anything negative about LLMs :) You just compared it w/ tooling. So I'm curious, do you think outside of the unsuitability of consideration as a tool, do you find LLMs useful?

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#265

Post by dismalaf »

handfuloflight wrote: post #241
dismalaf wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say more details as if you gave any to begin with...

Here's a hint: What I input for inference is not in the training data. But the model can generalize well enough to handle the task.

> What I input for inference is not in the training data

??? Like everyone else? This is why LLMs have large context windows.

> But the model can generalize well enough to handle the task.

Sounds like what you're doing is normal corporate business logic. If it's able to generalize it it's probably not particularly novel.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#266

Post by [deleted] »

dismalaf wrote: post #265
handfuloflight wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a hint: What I input for inference is not in the training data. But the model can generalize well enough to handle the task.

> What I input for inference is not in the training data ??? Like everyone else? This is why LLMs have large context windows. > But the model can generalize well enough to handle the task. Sounds like what you're doing is normal corporate business logic. If it's able to generalize it it's probably not particularly novel.

[deleted]

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#267

Post by handfuloflight »

dismalaf wrote: post #265
handfuloflight wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a hint: What I input for inference is not in the training data. But the model can generalize well enough to handle the task.

> What I input for inference is not in the training data ??? Like everyone else? This is why LLMs have large context windows. > But the model can generalize well enough to handle the task. Sounds like what you're doing is normal corporate business logic. If it's able to generalize it it's probably not particularly novel.

I know the novelty of what I'm working on. If it were in the training data, I'd have reached for a library. You can think what you want, but I'm not particularly interested in defending this debate by exposing the specifics of my own work. I know what is run-of-the-mill business logic, and I know what would be novel to the training data specifically because such systems did not exist when these models were trained nor exist now in public repositories that they could be scraped.

Also, you're contradicting yourself: you said LLMs aren't great at 'anything remotely novel,' then dismissed my novel inference as routine because 'everyone' does it with context windows. Which is it? Either novel input is challenging for LLMs or it's routine and expected: contradicting your claim that LLMs can't handle novel scenarios.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#268

Post by ido »

tomcam wrote: post #249
StefanBatory wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is DB2 Admin more productive than Java dev on the same seniority? What about countries? In my Poland $25k would be an amazing salary for a senior while in USA fresh grads can earn $80k. Are they more productive? ... at the same time, given same seniority, job and location - I'd be willing to say it wouldn't be a bad heuristic.

I find Poles to be among the very best, but it may be a bias in the sample. Most of the ones I know were motivated enough to move to the States for awesome jobs.

I worked with and known a bunch of Polish devs (in Poland), certainly a very high quality talent pool. There are also great devs in Romania and a lot of the countries that were part of former-Yugoslavia.

I never understood how there can be a significant wage gap between these countries and Western Europe for jobs that are anyway done online.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#269

Post by latexr »

zarzavat wrote: post #258
latexr wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An honest measurement tries to consider the aggregate , not one single point. If you had a hammer which could drive a nail through a plank 20x faster but took 60x longer to prepare before each strike, claiming 20x gains would be disingenuous.

The problem is that AI leads to extremely bimodal distribution of improvement. Sometimes it doesn't help at all. Other times it spits out several hours of work in seconds. It's like asking what is the weighted average of 1 and infinity? Even if you can quantify how many 1s and how many infinities there are, the answer is always going to be nonsensical.

I disagree with your example, but either way your conclusion is agreeing with my point. If you can’t give a sensible answer, then don’t give a random one confidently (like an LLM). The user in question is doing the equivalent of always answering “infinity” (the best case) to your example.

Re: AI coding tools can reduce productivity

#270

Post by StefanBatory »

ido wrote: post #72
StefanBatory wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is DB2 Admin more productive than Java dev on the same seniority? What about countries? In my Poland $25k would be an amazing salary for a senior while in USA fresh grads can earn $80k. Are they more productive? ... at the same time, given same seniority, job and location - I'd be willing to say it wouldn't be a bad heuristic.

It doesn't undermine your point, but if you mean gross yearly wage $25k is not an amazing salary for senior software developers in Poland (I guess it depends where in Poland).

Sorry, a typo - ought have been $35k.

10k PLN monthly would be a very good salary - and also perhaps a norm, as far as I know from experience and talking to peers.

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