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Australians to face age checks from search engines

ia.acs.org.au

261–270 of 274 posts

Re: Australians to face age checks from search engines

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That doesn't follow. The absolute of a principle being unobtainable doesn't mean it isn't of use. As I stated, you make a case by case judgment when applying it. That you aren't satisfied by the imperfection doesn't imply a lack of usefulness. The principle was that if you can't operate without doing harm, you can't operate. But then nobody can operate, including the government. If you give up that absolutist princ…

You're being dense. The original statement was: > maybe if you can't avoid causing harm then you shouldn't be allowed to operate? That isn't plausible to interpret as an absolute. The tradeoff is implied - as far as I can tell there isn't any other reasonable interpretation. It follows that the contextual implication is that the status quo is one of excessive harm. Clearly others don't agree with your view that a "re…

> That isn't plausible to interpret as an absolute.

It's inaccurate rhetoric, is the point. You would have to say "maybe if you can't avoid causing excessive harm you shouldn't be allowed to operate" in order to have a reasonable statement, but then you would be inviting the valid criticism that "excessive harm" isn't what's currently happening. And dodging that criticism by eliding the qualifier is the thing I'm not inclined to let someone get away with.

> Clearly others don't agree with your view that a "reasonable amount of resources" is being spent on the problem at present.

But do they disagree based on some kind of logical reasoning or evidence, or because they have a general feeling of wanting to protect kids, which can't tell you whether any given proposal to do so will cost more than it's worth?

> To your hand wringing about abuse of reports, nearly all of the smaller platforms I have participated on have treated that as some form of bannable offense.

Which has two problems. First, if someone reports something which is on the line and you decide that it's not over the line even though it was close, you're going to ban the person who reported it? And second, the people submitting false reports as a business model don't care about getting banned because they'll just open more accounts, or they were using compromised accounts to begin with and then you're banning the accounts of innocent people who have had their machines infected with malware.

> Responding to reports doesn't take anywhere near as much effort as you're making out.

Responding to reports with high accuracy absolutely does require a large amount of resources. Consider the most common system that actually tries to do that -- and even then still often gets it wrong -- is the court system. You can't even get within two orders of magnitude of that level of resources per report while still calling it a feasible amount of resources to foist onto a private party as an unfunded mandate.

> Because that's (quite obviously) not the goal.

If not propping up megacorps is a goal -- and it should be -- then encouraging smaller services is a rewording of that goal. If you exempt smaller services and that causes smaller services to take over, the result is that the services that take over are exempt. And when that's going to be the result then you can remove the unnecessary indirection.

> To date smaller venues have very good track records in my personal experience.

One of the ways they do this is that smaller services generally have a niche, and then depending on what that niche is, they can avoid a lot of this trouble because the nature of their audience doesn't attract it.

This site is a good example. Discussion of highly contentious debates is heavily suppressed, the site doesn't support posting images or videos and the audience is such that only a specific set of topics will get any traction.

Which is fine if that's what you're looking for, and there is a place for that, but services with a different focus will attract different elements and then have more of a problem. And saying "well just don't host any of that" is the false positives problem. Should there be nowhere that can host contentious political debates or where adults can express their sexuality?

The large sites have these problems because they're general purpose and thereby attract and include all kinds of things. If you split things into special-purpose sites while still expecting the sum of them to provide full coverage then some of them can avoid the problems by limiting their scope, but then the other ones have to do it and you've only moved the problem to a different place instead of actually solving it.

Re: Australians to face age checks from search engines

#262

What is it with some of the anglo countries and these ridiculous slides into nannying, vaguely repressive surveillance. It's not even much useful for real crime fighting, as the case of the UK amply and frequently demonstrates.

https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.... Read the legislation. Ask yourself if it's better for a country's government or a foreign set of social media companies to control what young people see. One has a profit motive above all else. One can be at least voted for or against.

Oh my god, the information and social media might be "foreign"!! that's obviously cause for suspicion and prohibition. Do you perhaps live in some brainless mid-20th century authoritarian fantasy of social dangers?

If you think X domestic legislation doesn't come with its own baggage of profit motives, hidden agendas and attempts at controlling narratives for young people, you're in for a rude awakening if you dig a bit deeper.

That aside, i'd rather parents being the ones who decide what minors see instead of some hackneyed government censorship program rammed through by a plethora of boogeymen and possibly (very likely) later used to track and censor adult access to information choices.

Laws like these and their supporters can both fuck off. It's the same old story from going back centuries, nationalist, religious or generally moralizing bullshit about the supposed dangers of some nefarious influence being used to restrict what I decide to read, watch or think about.

Re: Australians to face age checks from search engines

#263
post #99
post #25

I’m an Australian who values privacy and civil liberties more than most I meet. While I yearn for the more authentic and sincere days of the internet I grew up on, I recognize very quickly by visiting x or facebook how much it isn’t that, and hasn’t been for a long time. I think this bill is a good thing and I support it.

This is the account's first message here in two years

Yes, something like that.

Re: Australians to face age checks from search engines

#264
post #25

I’m an Australian who values privacy and civil liberties more than most I meet. While I yearn for the more authentic and sincere days of the internet I grew up on, I recognize very quickly by visiting x or facebook how much it isn’t that, and hasn’t been for a long time. I think this bill is a good thing and I support it.

The AI-based version of this looks fine, the ID checks are odd though

I can agree with that

Re: Australians to face age checks from search engines

#265
post #25

I’m an Australian who values privacy and civil liberties more than most I meet. While I yearn for the more authentic and sincere days of the internet I grew up on, I recognize very quickly by visiting x or facebook how much it isn’t that, and hasn’t been for a long time. I think this bill is a good thing and I support it.

>I think this bill is a good thing and I support it. Uhuh. >I’m an Australian who values privacy and civil liberties more than most I meet. No you're not.

Yes I am.

Re: Australians to face age checks from search engines

#266
post #107
post #25

I’m an Australian who values privacy and civil liberties more than most I meet. While I yearn for the more authentic and sincere days of the internet I grew up on, I recognize very quickly by visiting x or facebook how much it isn’t that, and hasn’t been for a long time. I think this bill is a good thing and I support it.

Evidently the bar for valuing such things is set very low in Australia.

Lower than you would like, maybe. I am just a single person, it's my own opinion. Where are you from? Do you speak for your entire nation?

Re: Australians to face age checks from search engines

#267
post #25

I’m an Australian who values privacy and civil liberties more than most I meet. While I yearn for the more authentic and sincere days of the internet I grew up on, I recognize very quickly by visiting x or facebook how much it isn’t that, and hasn’t been for a long time. I think this bill is a good thing and I support it.

I don't understand why you think this bill and that phenomenon (the fact that Xitter or Facebook aren't like the old days of the internet) are connected, can you explain why you think this, please?

Sure no worries, I can see why that's not immediately obvious to everyone.

I think people see laws and institutions encroaching on the internet as removing the 'wild west' aspect that existed on the internet in the early days. I have personally felt and have heard others express, a keen sense of nostalgia for that era. To many, more developed = less wild west.

People think of this legislation as increasing the complexity by going further away from that the more simple model. "Oh great, now I have to sign in to Google to view this" sort of thing.

I too get annoyed at small stuff like how you can't quote search all of google anymore. Things are more complex and just... different. Social media used to be a simple feed of people who you followed and not much else. The thing is, I believe the fact it's more big and complex, the fact it's the primary place many people interact- is actually why we need to legislate it.

Re: Australians to face age checks from search engines

#268
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should this be the government's responsibility rather than the parents'? For the same reason that the government limits smoking and alcohol. Because the parents can't/won't.

A teen can go to the store on their own and consume the cigarettes and alcohol right out the door without the parents knowing. There I can see why the parent would need the collaboration of greater society. But for a phone? A child/early-teen shouldn't be able to afford a phone nor contract with a cellphone-service-provider being underage. That should be collaboration enough. If they got a phone beforehand, it's beca…

[dead]

Re: Australians to face age checks from search engines

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why you think this bill and that phenomenon (the fact that Xitter or Facebook aren't like the old days of the internet) are connected, can you explain why you think this, please?

Sure no worries, I can see why that's not immediately obvious to everyone. I think people see laws and institutions encroaching on the internet as removing the 'wild west' aspect that existed on the internet in the early days. I have personally felt and have heard others express, a keen sense of nostalgia for that era. To many, more developed = less wild west. People think of this legislation as increasing the comple…

Again, I agree with what you're saying, but fail to see how that is affected by this bill.

The bill isn't legislating against Meta, or Google, or any of the big tech companies that are making the internet a worse place. If anything, the bill entrenches their place in the whole system by using their logins to identify minors.

I see nothing in this bill that will encourage the internet to be friendlier, or more creative, or less enshittified, or in any way "better". What are you seeing that I'm not?

Re: Australians to face age checks from search engines

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah true, I should have made it more explicit that it's your entire browser history, and every criminal case

Interesting question is warrant or no warrant required?

At the moment I believe a warrant is required but easily obtained. Eventually, if we go down this path, it won't.
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