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Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

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Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#261
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal. I disagree. Solutions should be technical whenever possible, because in practice, laws tend to be abused and/or not enforced. Laws also need resources and cooperation to be enforced, and some laws are hard to enforce without creating backdoors or compromising other rights. "ISPs will be prohibited from spying on their customers" doesn't mean ISPs won't s…

And how do you technically stop an ISP from using the radio in their hardware to detect small changes in phase angle of signals in your home?

You attach large sacks of potatoes to the ceiling fans and lighting fixtures that are connected to strings and random timers to move them. The potato bags perfectly simulate human motion.

Every house should look like a party of 50.

Invest in potatoes

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is magical thinking, because it’s using the legal system to solve a technical and social problem. It’s probably possible to create standards that don’t leak PII and other forms of metadata that are unique. That is probably the only solution going forward to reduce possible interdiction by extralegal third parties. However, Comcast can only be enjoined from doing this legally, and will likely not do anything that…

> This is magical thinking, because it’s using the legal system to solve a technical and social problem. Is that not literally the entire purpose of the legal system? > will likely not do anything that isn’t implemented by standards bodies, such as WiFi standards I imagine beamforming techniques are only going to become more commonplace over time. > Once Comcast has the data, it is available to law enforcement via th…

> > This is magical thinking, because it’s using the legal system to solve a technical and social problem.

> Is that not literally the entire purpose of the legal system?

The legal system is subverted by the national security apparatus by necessity and by design. The information gathered by ISPs is necessary to prevent interference with ground-based radars around airports, and is necessary for fraud detection and internal security of the network. It would be feasible to make it so that this information would be gathered and retained only for a short period of time to establish and maintain network integrity, such as handshakes and other bits and bytes exchanged and retained inherent to the protocols used. The legal doctrines that establish the legality of full take surveillance have been argued before FISA courts, so an act of Congress or a test case would likely be necessary to prompt any legal reexamination of the relevant issues. However, national security issues are not really able to be resolved legislatively, because executive orders will always enable that which cannot be done on the books, which presupposes that which is done is done by the book to begin with.

What is done in the shadows must stay obscured due to means and methods, and this ideology isn’t amenable to change, political or otherwise. There is not much else to say on that point as it is observational and experiential based on my lived experience and history of interactions with law enforcement, national security professionals, and private security as a service provider and former licensed security guard, as well as being a victim of police overreach and charge stacking. I’ve worked with law enforcement and been work for law enforcement. I’ve fought the law to a draw, and I’ve fought the law and lost due to bad calls by refs. I’m working on becoming a better citizen and community member so that I can be a helper. More than that, I can’t say. The future is hopeful and yet the challenges are real, and changing. Old guards are giving way to young Turks. It’s an interesting time to be alive.

> > will likely not do anything that isn’t implemented by standards bodies, such as WiFi standards

> I imagine beamforming techniques are only going to become more commonplace over time.

The beamforming and other technologies used with modern WiFi are what enable the motion detection “for free” because the WiFi signals act as radar signals, the contours of the perturbations of which are already baked into the WiFi protocol. It’s insecure by design against this side channel attack.

> > Once Comcast has the data, it is available to law enforcement via the Third Party Doctrine

> Unless they were legally obligated to purge it from their servers after a few weeks. Or if they employed E2EE so as not to have access to the data in the first place.

You would have to reimplement the standards to make everything that squawks rotate their identifiers regularly, ideally after every transmission. It’s possible I suppose. I don’t think the political will is there to mandate this, and there are not that many people who work on these kinds of problems. Look at who created TOR. You’d have to run that kind of system everywhere, and only use it for everything, and that system would have to be part of the protocol or otherwise unable to be disabled by end users. Otherwise, you’re at the status quo we have now, where the weak links are the first to break.

If this sounds like a stretch, the weak links are always people, not protocols or pipes. That’s why this is magical thinking. As principled as you and I are, bad guys don’t have principles. Those who fight bad guys have principles, and they also have more coffee and mathematicians and hashrate.

Congress will never rule against the national security apparatus because there is no political will to do so. I can count on one hand the folks in Congress who are on relevant committees to even consider legislation on these matters who is in any way critical at all, and they largely agree with you that something needs to be done. But they don’t have the votes to do anything because the issues aren’t relevant to voters. No one cares the way you or I do, or they would probably become lawyers or politicians, as well as soldiers and broadcasters.

If you think something constructive and positive needs to be done, I would likely agree that the impetus for change exists. I’m all ears.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal. I disagree. Solutions should be technical whenever possible, because in practice, laws tend to be abused and/or not enforced. Laws also need resources and cooperation to be enforced, and some laws are hard to enforce without creating backdoors or compromising other rights. "ISPs will be prohibited from spying on their customers" doesn't mean ISPs won't s…

You can’t solve social problems with technical solutions. Technical solutions won’t work without some kind of legal backing to force it.

Sometimes mathematics and physics provide superior solutions than man-made laws. Encryption for example. It's better to make something impossible, than to have laws that are routinely ignored by law enforcement.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#264
post #220
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal. If we rely on the technical path, Comcast can achieve the same by how many active IPv6 addresses are in use. Even if you aren't using your phone, the device is going to be constantly pinging services like email, and your ISP can use that to piece together how many people are at home. If we rely on legal protection, then not only Comcast, but all ISPs will…

We suffer from a problem that engineers want nothing to do with politics. I 1000% agree we need a digital bill of rights. It pains me every time a “well behaved” website pops up a cookie consent banner for the billionth time after I already consented because the browser wiped all the persistent user identifiers available to it. For my protection -_- I want privacy codified in human law. I didn't vote for standards bo…

The problem is that the internet is international and laws are national or even by state.

There are 24 states that require ID to view porn sites. The laws are being completely ignored by popular websites that are not based in the US.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#266
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal. I disagree. Solutions should be technical whenever possible, because in practice, laws tend to be abused and/or not enforced. Laws also need resources and cooperation to be enforced, and some laws are hard to enforce without creating backdoors or compromising other rights. "ISPs will be prohibited from spying on their customers" doesn't mean ISPs won't s…

Technical and legal solutions are for different classes of problems. Encryption is a technical solution trying to solve the problem of people being able to steal your data/money without your knowledge. The law/police are the solution to the 5 dollar wrench problem, where you are very aware of the attack but unable to physically stop it

And the law can’t stop someone from using a $5 wrench before the harm is done…

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#267
post #220
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution here shouldn't be technical; it should be legal. If we rely on the technical path, Comcast can achieve the same by how many active IPv6 addresses are in use. Even if you aren't using your phone, the device is going to be constantly pinging services like email, and your ISP can use that to piece together how many people are at home. If we rely on legal protection, then not only Comcast, but all ISPs will…

We suffer from a problem that engineers want nothing to do with politics. I 1000% agree we need a digital bill of rights. It pains me every time a “well behaved” website pops up a cookie consent banner for the billionth time after I already consented because the browser wiped all the persistent user identifiers available to it. For my protection -_- I want privacy codified in human law. I didn't vote for standards bo…

>>We suffer from a problem that engineers want nothing to do with politics.

More on point, we suffer from a problem that far too many people of all walks of life want nothing to do with politics.

Plato made the most accurate point 2300 years ago: "The penalty for not being involved in politics is you will be ruled by your inferiors."

And, even though you may not be interested in politics, politics is ALWAYS interested in you.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#268

I'm sure people will want to make it seem like Comcast is doing something evil here, but they're not: > Comcast does not monitor the motion and/or notifications generated by the service. > This feature is currently only available for select Xfinity Internet customers as part of an early access preview. > WiFi Motion is off by default. Features like this at Comcast are typically one or two engineers on a random team c…

> does not monitor motion

This doesn't mean that they can't monitor motion (e.g. as compelled via NSL). This product sorely needs E2EE.

Re: Xfinity using WiFi signals in your house to detect motion

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can still deduce this from the traffic patterns.

They can map your home and motion with traffic patterns?

The OP was also talking about deducing presence based on connections and traffic patterns, which using your own WiFi AP isn't going to mitigate.
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