Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers • Hacker News Board

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#261

Post by lenkite » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:29 AM UTC

INGSOCIALITE wrote: post #238

socalgal2 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are other options out there. This isn't about the a consumer's right to buy a different phone. It's about a business's right to do business with customers without Apple in the middle. And it's specifically about Apple's monopoly power over those businesses. No government is going to accept that some company, Apple, gets that kind of control.

so then i should be able to use any ink in my printer then...

Are there only two printer manufacturers in the world ? Do they set a 30% tax on when you wish to print a page from a website ?

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#262

Post by fastball » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:30 AM UTC

spongebobstoes wrote: post #150

buran77 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think any big tech company has ever done anything as evil and predatory as Apple walling off iMessage Is that really the worst thing you've seen big-tech do? That's very fortunate. What about Blackberry Messenger which was the mobile instant-messaging golden standard for years and BB exclusive for as long as it mattered in the market? Was that too long ago to remember?

my understanding is that BBM was different because there was nothing to interoperate with at the time Apple refusing RCS integration is a very clear example of hurting everyone in pursuit of profit it's likely not the most evil, but I do think it qualifies as evil. it stands out by being inarguably willful, and having a very broad impact I find harming hundreds of millions (probably billions) of friendships to be qui…

Android didn't introduce RCS support until 2019, 8 years after the introduction of iMessage.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#263

Post by hk1337 » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:31 AM UTC

_benton wrote: post #66

whstl wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? In their own machines they can do whatever they want. Once they sell it to you, not anymore.

Are you legally prevented from controlling your device in any way you wish after purchase? I think people are conflating ease of modification from legally being able to do so. If it's legal, then Apple retains no control over the device.

I think people see phones like Android, they like the things they can do with it but like the iPhone better and want Apple to do it with iPhone.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#264

Post by lenkite » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:31 AM UTC

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #222

wavemode wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's specifically anticompetitive for Apple to force app developers to go through Apple Payments (with a 30% fee to Apple) for all purchases, otherwise their app is disallowed from being sold on the App store. There's no technological reason for app developers to be restricted from using other payment processors - it's purely a strategy for increased revenue for Apple. In antitrust terms, it is a form of Vend…

> There's no technological reason for app developers to be restricted from using other payment processors But there is a customer experience reason. As an iOS user, I very much appreciate that I can ask Apple to cancel some bullshit subscription that used to otherwise try to lock me in behind a labyrinth of added friction and timewasting. Not every problem is technological.

You are free to pay ~30% extra for your preferred customer experience. The rest of us can leverage discounted pricing. Customer Choice for the win!

Also, thinking that all businesses will lock one in using friction and timewasting is not a rational argument. There are a lot of honest businesses there forced to pay the Apple Mafia's tax.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#265

Post by StrandedKitty » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:33 AM UTC

briandw wrote: post #240

andrewinardeer wrote: post #20

I'm not an Apple enthusiast—my rarely used iPad mini is my only Apple device—but let me play devil’s advocate. If a company invests billions in R&D to create hardware and its integrated software, shouldn’t it have the right to control who or what interacts with it? Why should I be forced to open up the carefully designed ecosystem I’ve built? If my pitch is premium, high-speed hardware and intuitive software so user-…

I don't see people making the same arguments about Steam, Microsoft, Nintendo, etc, etc. Why is Apple special here? Other companies make stores that deliver application and developers don't get to tell them what to do. That's fine apparently, just not for Apple.

Maybe the reason is that the number of Apple users is an order of magnitude higher? Plus, they control both hardware and software. Apple is making very consumer-oriented products, and this comes with it's own downside of having to handle billions of users.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#266

Post by me551ah » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:33 AM UTC

INGSOCIALITE wrote: post #238

socalgal2 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are other options out there. This isn't about the a consumer's right to buy a different phone. It's about a business's right to do business with customers without Apple in the middle. And it's specifically about Apple's monopoly power over those businesses. No government is going to accept that some company, Apple, gets that kind of control.

so then i should be able to use any ink in my printer then...

You absolutely can. Just google for your “ compatible cartridges” , and you’ll find tons that are cheaper and work just fine with your printer.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#267

Post by absurdo » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:36 AM UTC

bitpush wrote: post #2

> We don’t question Apple’s right to act on behalf of authoritarians for the sake of profit, but Apple’s monopoly over iOS app distribution means it can enforce this perverse policy on all app developers, forcing them to also be complicit. Ouch. Those are some fighting words.

[flagged]

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#268

Post by lenkite » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:37 AM UTC

_benton wrote: post #163

whstl wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared to major interests of "companies, countries, economies and other users of phones", this is inarguably small. Especially in the light of the only real complaint being that "there is a possibility of loss of security".

The difference is that the choice to purchase devices that offer the freedom you want is available, if not the primary option. I don't wish to take that away from you. However you are advocating for the only choice for a locked down device be legislated out of existence. There is a fundamental difference here!

Feel free to lock down your device. Stick to the Apple Store. You have that freedom. The rest of us want our freedom too.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#269

Post by ThatPlayer » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:40 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #220

ThatPlayer wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies may be global, but individual consumers are not. Anti-trust is about consumer harm. So that's why local markets matter.

Sure if you're an ISP where you're the only choice in a neighborhood. But I don't see much that's local about Apple vs. Samsung. It's the same phones for sale in the US or in Thailand. Literally as one-size-fits-all global as you can get.

> It's the same phones for sale in the US or in Thailand.

They actually aren't. US iPhones no longer have SIM card slots. Most international phones don't support the same radio bands that US carriers use. This used to be a bigger issue with CDMA, but still an issue with the many 4G/5G bands and VoLTE. That'll be most Xiaomi and Oppo phones in the US. And there's Huawei phones that are banned and not allowed on US carriers; so it makes zero sense to include them into any marketshare calculations for a US consumer.

So even an iPhone 16 Pro has different models: A3293 (International) A3083 (USA) A3292 (Middle East, Canada, Mexico) and A3294 (China, Hong Kong). The A3293 and the A3294 do not support T-mobile's 5G band 71. This isn't uncommon, and Samsung will do similar international vs US models. Samsung is even worse sometimes, having completely different CPUs between regions.

And of course there's software differences too. Chinese iPhones can disable internet permissions for individual apps but not anyone else for some reason. Google Pixel's Gemini isn't available in EU countries. Apple Intelligence did similarly at launch.

While local marketshare isn't the perfect indicator, it's definitely better than using global marketshare.

Re: Proton joins suit against Apple for practices that harm developers and consumers

#270

Post by dcow » Tue, Jul 01, 2025, 4:44 AM UTC

> Companies that monetize user data in exchange for “free” services that abuse your privacy aren’t affected by this [the app store tax], as they don’t process payments through the App Store. However, privacy-first companies that monetize through subscriptions are disproportionately hit by this fee, putting a major barrier toward the adoption of privacy-first business models.

Huh. I’ve never seen it framed this way and it might be the most compelling argument I’ve heard to date. It’s not simply a debate about whether a company should be allowed to be vertically integrated in isolation, but whether that vertical integration allows them to exert unfair distorting pressure on the free markets we are trying to protect.