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IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#261

Post by lukan »

aaomidi wrote: post #247
lukan wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you get a bit more specific here? Because it kind of reads like an attack towards me for not caring about genocide. If you are curious about my point of view, it is that both Hamas and Israeli leadership belongs in prison and the US and EU should stop supporting them immediately. But that doesn't mean I support anyone who wants to erease Israel. Do you support Hamas?

Asking if I support Hamas makes this unworthy of a response.

You could just state "no", if you don't, then I would have apologized.

But you gave a response, but avoided the question. Together with your comment history and wording I do conclude now that you do.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#262

Post by xg15 »

andrepd wrote: post #246
johnebgd wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> It’d be convenient if Jews just stopped existing so the Arabs could take their homeland again This argument betrays your bias: that the land is yours (Jewish I mean), and "Arabs" stole it and want to steal it again. Of course, the other side sees it differently. They see a half a century of immigration to their land culminating in a partition that was imposed from the outside in Western colonialist fashion without…

I find it exemplified in the disagreements even in the beginning of the conflict. I feel, pro-Israeli commenters either prefer to start with 1948 (The state somehow appeared like some sort of divine creation and was immediately declared war by all surrounding countries) or in biblical times.

Pro-Palestinian commenters usually start with the Balfour Declaration or Theodor Herzl's books, I believe.

I found 1881/1882 a good starting point, because this was the first time there was organized immigration that explicitly followed Zionist plans and ideology - I.e. people were not abstractly thinking about "returning to Jerusalem" and they weren't immigrating into the Ottoman empire for other reasons, but they were deliberately immigrating with the intention of (re-)establishing a "Jewish homeland" in the biblical Land of Israel.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#263

Post by yoavm »

cropcirclbureau wrote: post #211
xg15 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm German and I really see a lot of the blame for this on our states as well - the US and the EU states (especially Germany, sadly). As horrible as the Israeli mindset is, their subjective viewpoint is at least somewhat relatable: An ordinary Israeli citizen is born in that land, knows nothing else, just learns that the entirety of the surrounding populations want them dead - and will with very high likelihood exper…

Israel and people of Jewish heritage has a lot of soft-power in the west. And the anti-terrorism rhetoric that Israeli's using to sell this has has previously been deployed by the west to cover up it's own crimes.

I would argue that the Muslim world has gained quite some political power in the West, perhaps as a simple result of immigration. The EU for example seem to have about 50 times more Muslims than Jews.

Anti-terrorism rhetorics has indeed previously led to terrible crimes, but I wouldn't suppose that's a reason to support pro-terrorism rhetorics. It's probably best to look at the content instead of the type of rhetorics.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#264

Post by [deleted] »

yoavm wrote: post #236
cropcirclbureau wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I am an Arab Jew, and I actually have many friends in Gaza. I don't disagree about the usage of the words Genocide, though I think the terms is a little too easy to apply. I think a Holocaust is a completely different thing. There are Palestinians in the Israeli parliament, in the Supreme Court. No one is gathering Palestinians in gas chambers, and in general the Palestinian population only grew since the establishme…

[deleted]

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#265

Post by palmfacehn »

cladopa wrote: post #205

[flagged]

If we accept this and the claim that Hamas deliberately seeks to maximize civilian casualties, then consider the hypothetical:

What would stop them from deliberately drawing fire under this scenario?

Aside from meeting the Israeli demands, what other options remain for Hamas?

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#266

Post by wtcactus »

7sigma wrote: post #256
wtcactus wrote: post #235

[flagged]

You mean the barbarity of the zionist militias and IDF who have been ethnically cleansing and murdering Palestinians since 1948? This is no different thank French people in Algeria who committed a genocide during all the way up to the liberation. Its the same standard that should be upheld with South Africa and the Nazi regime

[flagged]

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#267

Post by tim333 »

xg15 wrote: post #190
alluro2 wrote: post #177

I visited Israel for a sports seminar some ~10 years ago and met many nice people. I felt sympathetic to their reality of living in an ever-hostile environment from all sides, and struggle to keep their place in the world safe. I admired their resilience and strength. When this Gaza conflict started, I saw how the Israeli protested against their government and demanded peace, so I thought there is a semblance of an e…

I'm German and I really see a lot of the blame for this on our states as well - the US and the EU states (especially Germany, sadly). As horrible as the Israeli mindset is, their subjective viewpoint is at least somewhat relatable: An ordinary Israeli citizen is born in that land, knows nothing else, just learns that the entirety of the surrounding populations want them dead - and will with very high likelihood exper…

[flagged]

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#268

Post by yoavm »

rgblambda wrote: post #102
perlgeek wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Israel's perspective, Palestinians are a problem. Long term, they have a few options: 1) Give them their own state. This is difficult for quite many reasons, and Israel (by which I mean the current government) doesn't want that 2) Give them full citizenship rights equal to Israel's citizens, make sure they have a proper minority representation, and let them participate in the regular political processes. The cur…

>Give them full citizenship rights equal to Israel's citizens, make sure they have a proper minority representation As the Palestinians are the majority, the Jewish Israelis would become a minority in terms of citizens and votes. This is very much akin to Apartheid South Africa, where a minority ethnic group rules over the rest of the population.

The White minority in South Africa were around 15% of the population, while Jews and Palestinians in Israel & Palestine seem to be much more around a 50%-50% split.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#269

Post by Cyph0n »

yoavm wrote: post #236
cropcirclbureau wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I am an Arab Jew, and I actually have many friends in Gaza. I don't disagree about the usage of the words Genocide, though I think the terms is a little too easy to apply. I think a Holocaust is a completely different thing. There are Palestinians in the Israeli parliament, in the Supreme Court. No one is gathering Palestinians in gas chambers, and in general the Palestinian population only grew since the establishme…

[flagged]

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#270

Post by cropcirclbureau »

yoavm wrote: post #236
cropcirclbureau wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I am an Arab Jew, and I actually have many friends in Gaza. I don't disagree about the usage of the words Genocide, though I think the terms is a little too easy to apply. I think a Holocaust is a completely different thing. There are Palestinians in the Israeli parliament, in the Supreme Court. No one is gathering Palestinians in gas chambers, and in general the Palestinian population only grew since the establishme…

That's an interpretation of events that I've heard from a lot of Israeli folks that are in some way horrified what's happening in Gaza. I think it's very naive and I don't even think most folks saying this believe in it themselves. What actions from the IDF, what imbalance of power, what civilian casualty rates will you need to see to believe that it's no longer a war? Are you really waiting for the actual mass starvation to take place before accept there's intent? Does it have to be gas chambers? Does the death toll have to pass 1 million? 6 million? Do you really think that the Israeli government wants to brings the hostages back? What do you think would happen after they did bring them back? Will you rescind your support then?

Jews in the Ghetto didn't get the chance to shoot rockets at Berlin but had they been able to fight back, I'd have given them the same understanding that I currently extends to Palestinians that grew up in the concentration camp that is Gaza. Hamas is the direct results of Israeli policies of the past decades. Even if the IDF manages to somehow invent some purity test for Gazans that it can use to confirm there are no longer any Hamas members left and it finally declares it's operations concluded, you'll have people shooting rockets at Israel if they keep their policies with the Gaza strip and the West Bank. But long term solutions come later, right now, Israelis need to wake up and say no to what is unfolding in the name of their security.

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