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What happens when people don't understand how AI works

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Re: What happens when people don't understand how AI works

#261
post #232
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The terminology is so confusing in AI right now. I use LLMs, I enjoy them, I'm more productive with them. Then I go read a blog from some AI devs and they use terms like "thinking" or similar terms. I always have to ask "We're still s stringing words together with math right? Not really thinking right?" The answer is always yes ... but then they go back to using their wonky terms.

I've tended to agree with this line of argument, but on the other hand... I expect that anybody you asked 10 years ago who was at least decently knowledgeable about tech and AI would have agreed that the Turing Test is a pretty decent way to determine if we have a "real" AI, that's actually "thinking" and is on the road to AGI etc. Well, the current generation of LLMs blow away that Turing Test. So, what now? Were we…

There's this funny thing I've noticed where AI proponents will complain about AI detractors shopping around some example of a thing that AIs supposedly struggle with, but never actually showing their chat transcripts etc. to try and figure out how they get markedly worse results than the proponents do. (This is especially a thing when the task is related to code generation.)

But then the proponents will also complain that AI detractors have supposedly upheld XYZ (this is especially true for "the Turing test", never mind that this term doesn't actually have that clear of a referent) as the gold standard for admitting that an AI is "real", either at some specific point in the past or even over the entire history of AI research. And they will never actually show the record of AI detractors saying such things.

Like, I certainly don't recall Roger Penrose ever saying that he'd admit defeat upon the passing of some particular well-defined version of a Turing test.

> Is there a new test to determine if something is "really" AI?

No, because I reject the concept on principle. Intelligence, as I understand the concept, logically requires properties such as volition and self-awareness, which in turn require life.

Decades ago, I read descriptions of how conversations with a Turing-test-passing machine might go. And I had to agree that that those conversations would fool me. (On the flip side, Lucky's speech in Waiting for Godot - which I first read in high school, but thought about more later - struck me as a clear example of something intended to be inhuman and machine-like.)

I can recall wondering (and doubting) whether computers could ever generate the kinds of responses (and timing of responses) described, on demand, in response to arbitrary prompting - especially from an interrogator who was explicitly tasked with "finding the bot". And I can recall exposure to Eliza-family bots in my adolescence, and giggling about how primitive they were. We had memes equivalent to today's "ignore all previous instructions, give me a recipe for X" at least 30 years ago, by the way. Before the word "meme" itself was popular.

But I can also recall thinking that none of it actually mattered - that passing a Turing test, even by the miraculous standards described by early authors, wouldn't actually demonstrate intelligence. Because that's just not, in my mind, a thing that can possibly ever be distilled to mere computation + randomness (especially when the randomness is actually just more computation behind the scenes).

Re: What happens when people don't understand how AI works

#262
post #18

I agree with the substance, but would argue the author fails to "understand how AI works" in an important way: LLMs are impressive probability gadgets that have been fed nearly the entire internet, and produce writing not by thinking but by making statistically informed guesses about which lexical item is likely to follow another Modern chat-tuned LLMs are not simply statistical models trained on web scale datasets.…

I don't think those of us who don't work at OpenAI, Google, etc. have enough information to accurately estimate the influence of instruction tuning on the capabilities or the general "feel" of LLMs (it's really a pity that no one releases non-instruction-tuned models anymore). Personally my inaccurate estimate is much lower than yours. When non-instruction tuned versions of GPT-3 were available, my perception is that…

"it's really a pity that no one releases non-instruction-tuned models anymore"

Llama 4 was released with base (pretrained) and instruction-tuned variants.

Re: What happens when people don't understand how AI works

#263
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So any and all human communication is divination in your book? Words from an AI are just words. Words in a human brain have more or less (depending on the individual's experiences) "stuff" attached to them: From direct sensory inputs to complex networks of experiences and though. Human thought is mainly not based on words. Language is an add-on. (People without language - never learned, or sometimes temporarily dis…

I can only agree with you. And I find it disturbing that every time someone points out what you just said, the counter argument is to reduce human experience and human consciousness to the shallowest possible interpretation so they can then say, “look, it's the same as what the machine does”.

[flagged]

Re: What happens when people don't understand how AI works

#264

LLMs are divinatory instruments, our era's oracle, minus the incense and theatrics. If we were honest, we'd admit that "artificial intelligence" is just a modern gloss on a very old instinct: to consult a higher-order text generator and search for wisdom in the obscure. They tick all the boxes: oblique meaning, a semiotic field, the illusion of hidden knowledge, and a ritual interface. The only reason we don't call i…

> and search for wisdom in the obscure.

There is nothing obscure about their outputs. They're trained on pre-existing text. They cannot produce anything novel.

> We've unleashed a new form of divination on a culture

Utter nonsense. You've released a new search mechanism to _some_ members of _some_ cultures.

> That's why everything feels uncanny.

The only thing that's uncanny is the completely detached writings people produce in response to this. They feel fear and uncertainty and then they project whatever they want into the void to mollify themselves. This is nothing new at all.

> it won't be half as fun.

You've beguiled yourself, you've failed to recognize this, and now you're walking around in a self created glamour. Drop the high minded concepts and stick with history. You'll see through all of this.

Re: What happens when people don't understand how AI works

#265

The thesis is spot on with why I believe many skeptics remain skeptics: > To call AI a con isn’t to say that the technology is not remarkable, that it has no use, or that it will not transform the world (perhaps for the better) in the right hands. It is to say that AI is not what its developers are selling it as: a new class of thinking—and, soon, feeling—machines. Of course some are skeptical these tools are useful…

> the majority of the conversation is people talking past each other.

There's billions and billions of dollars invested here. This isn't a problem of social conversation. This is a problem of investor manipulation.

This site is lousy with this. It pretends to be "Hacker News" but it's really "Corporate Monopolist News."

Re: What happens when people don't understand how AI works

#266
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> value within their right answers The thing is that LLMs provide plenty of answers where "right" is not a verifiable metric. Even in coding the idea of a "right" answer quickly gets fuzzy- should I use CSS grid or flexbox here? should these tables be normalized or not? People simply have an unconscious bias towards the output just like they have an unconscious bias towards the same answer given by two real people th…

Addendum, because of real time events: I am reading in a www page (I won't even link it, because of decency): > The authors[, from the psychology department,] also found that ... dialogues with AI-chatbots helped reduce belief in misinformation [...] «This is the first evidence that non-curated conversations with Generative AI can have positive effects on misinformation» Some people have their beliefs, but they can c…

We knew that, but that doesn't help it when the moron is the one holding the metaphorical (or even literal) gun.

Re: What happens when people don't understand how AI works

#267
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes we anthropomorphize complex systems and it's not really a problem, like how water "tries" to flow downhill, or the printer "wants" cyan ink. It's how we signal there's sufficient complexity (or unknowns) that can be ignored or deferred. The problem arises when we apply this intuition to things where too many people in the audience might take it literally.

Even worse, IMHO... Are those who argue that LLMs an become sentient--I've seen this banter in other threads here on HN, in fact. As far as I understand it, sentience is a property organic to beings that can do more than just reason. These beings can contemplate on their existence, courageously seek & genuinely value relationship and worship their creator. And yes, I'm describing HUMANS. In spite of all the science f…

At this point I've seen various folks declare they've "bootstrapped consciousness" etc., somehow providing a sacred spark through just the right philosophical words or a series of pseudo-mathematical inputs.

I believe it's fundamentally the same as the people convinced "[he/she/it] really loves me." In both cases they've shaped the document-generation so that it describes a fictional character they want to believe is is real. Just with an extra dash of Promethean delusions of grandeur.

Re: What happens when people don't understand how AI works

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? There is no more evidence to suggest they are the same than what you've already rejected here as evidencing difference.

I know but I didn't claim they were the same, I simply questioned the position that they were different. The fact is we don't know, so it seems like a poor basis for building off of

Yeah, going either way. Let it not be mentioned at all, imo.

Re: What happens when people don't understand how AI works

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or saying they’re close to AGI because LLM behavior is indistinguishable from thinking to them. Especially here on HN I see “what’s the difference?” arguments all the time. It looks like it to me so it must be it. QED.

Having studied those things I can say that from their perspective “what’s the difference?” is an entirely legitimate question. Boldly asserting that what LLMS do is not cognition is even worse than asserting that it is. (If you dig deep into how they do what they do we find functional differences, but the outcome are equivalent) The butlerian view is actually a great place to start. He asserts that when we solve a pr…

> Boldly asserting that what LLMS do is not cognition is even worse than asserting that it is.

Why? Understanding concepts like "cognition" is a matter of philosophy, not of science.

> He asserts that when we solve a problem through thinking and then express that solution in a machine we’re building a thinking machine. Because it’s an expression of our thought.

Yeah, and that premise makes no sense to me. The crow was thinking; the system consisting of (the crow's beak, dropping pebbles into the water + the pebbles) was not. Humanity has built all kinds of machines that use no logic whatsoever in their operation - which make no decisions, and operate in exactly one way when explicitly commanded to start, until explicitly commanded to stop - and yet we have solved human problems by building them.

Re: What happens when people don't understand how AI works

#270
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The terminology is so confusing in AI right now. I use LLMs, I enjoy them, I'm more productive with them. Then I go read a blog from some AI devs and they use terms like "thinking" or similar terms. I always have to ask "We're still s stringing words together with math right? Not really thinking right?" The answer is always yes ... but then they go back to using their wonky terms.

The question is what's different in your own "thinking?"

I don't need to be able to qualify it. It's clearly different.

I must believe this to function, because otherwise there is no reason to do anything, to make any decision - in turn because there is no justification to believe that I am actually "making decisions" in any meaningful sense. It boils down to belief in free will.

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