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My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

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Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#261

Can someone explain to me what this means? > People coding with LLMs today use agents. Agents get to poke around your codebase on their own. They author files directly. They run tools. They compile code, run tests, and iterate on the results. ... Is this what people are really doing? Who is just turning AI loose to modify things as it sees fit? If I'm not directing the work, how does it even know what to do? I've bee…

This is how I work:

I use Cursor by asking it exactly what I want and how I want it. By default, Cursor has access to the files I open, and it can reference other files using grep or by running specific commands. It can edit files.

It performs well in a fairly large codebase, mainly because I don’t let it write everything. I carefully designed the architecture and chose the patterns I wanted to follow. I also wrote a significant portion of the initial codebase myself and created detailed style guides for my teammates.

As a result, Cursor (or you can say models you selecting because cursor is just a router for commercial models) handles small, focused tasks quite well. I also review every piece of code it generates. It's particularly good at writing tests, which saves me time.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#262

I’d love to see the authors of effusive praise of generative AI like this provide the proof of the unlimited powers of their tools in code. If GAI (or agents, or whatever comes next …) is so effective it should be quite simple to prove that by creating an AI only company and in short order producing huge amounts of serviceable code to do useful things. So far I’ve seen no sign of this, and the best use case seems to…

I think this is a misunderstanding coder productivity. A 10x engineer isn't 10x faster at popping out Unit tests, that stuff is mind-numbingly boring that turns out a next token predictor can do it with ease. In fact I would guess that really "productive" software engineers, slow down considerably when forced to do this important but slow work*.

The 10x engineer is really good at deducing the next most important thing to do is and doing it quickly. This involves quickly moving past 100's of design decisions in a week to deliver something quickly. It requires you to think partly like a product manager and partly like a senior engineer but that's the game and LLM's are zero help there.

Most engineering productivity is probably locked up in this. So yes, LLM's probably help a lot, just not in the way that would show on some Jira board?

*One could claim that doing this slow work gives the brain a break to then be good at strategizing the higher order more important work. Not sure.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#263
A big problem is that you're either hearing breathless over the top insane hype (or doomerism, which is breathless over the top hype taken to a dark place) or skepticism that considers AI/LLMs to be in the same league as NFTs.

Neither of these is accurate, but I guess nuanced thinking or considering anything below surface vibes is out these days.

So far after playing with them I'm using them as:

1. A junior intern that can google really really fast and has memorized a large chunk of the Internet and the library, and can do rough first-pass research and dig for things.

2. Autocomplete 2.0 that can now generate things like boilerplate or fairly pedestrian unit tests.

3. Rubber duck debugging where the rubber duck talks back.

4. A helper to explain code, at least for a first pass. I can highlight a huge piece of code and ask it to summarize and then explain and walk me through it and it does a passable job. It doesn't get everything right but as long as you know that, it's a good way to break things down and get into it.

For those things it's pretty good, and it's definitely a lot of fun to play with.

I expect that it will get better. I don't expect it to replace programmers for anything but the most boring mindless tasks (the ones I hate doing), but I expect it to continue to become more and more useful as super-autocomplete and all the other things I listed.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#264

I’d love to see the authors of effusive praise of generative AI like this provide the proof of the unlimited powers of their tools in code. If GAI (or agents, or whatever comes next …) is so effective it should be quite simple to prove that by creating an AI only company and in short order producing huge amounts of serviceable code to do useful things. So far I’ve seen no sign of this, and the best use case seems to…

I don't think I would notice a 100% improvement in software productivity in most companies, from the outside. Most of the time, that would just translate to the company being able to hire fewer developers, and having slightly higher profit margins – but not enormously higher, because developers are only one part.

I recently used Claude Code to develop & merge an optimization that will save about $4,000 a month. It was relatively simple but tedious, so I probably wouldn't have done it on my own. I don't even expect most of my coworkers to notice.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#265

I’d love to see the authors of effusive praise of generative AI like this provide the proof of the unlimited powers of their tools in code. If GAI (or agents, or whatever comes next …) is so effective it should be quite simple to prove that by creating an AI only company and in short order producing huge amounts of serviceable code to do useful things. So far I’ve seen no sign of this, and the best use case seems to…

[deleted]

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#267
AI makes me sad. When I started my CS degree, I didn't even know what silicon valley was. I was unaware of what the SWE job landscape was like. I went to school in a no-name town.

Computer science was an immensely fun subject to learn. I moved to one of the big cities and was bewildered with how much there was to learn, and loved every second of it. I gradually became good enough to help anyone with almost anything, and spent lots of my free time digging deeper and learning.

I liked CS and programming - but I did not like products built by the companies where I was good enough to be employed. These were just unfortunate annoyances that allowed me to work close enough to what I actually enjoyed, which was just code, and the computer.

Before LLMs, those like me could find a place within most companies - the person you don't go to for fast features, but for weird bugs or other things that the more product-minded people weren't interested in. There was still, however, an uncomfortable tension. And now that tension is even greater. I do not use an LLM to write all my code, because I enjoy doing things myself. If I do not have that joy, then it will be immensely difficult for me to continue the career I have already invested so much time in. If I could go back in time and choose another field I would - but since that's not possible, I don't understand why it's so hard for people to have empathy for people like me. I would never have gone down this path if I knew that one day, my hard-earned-knowledge would become so much less valuable, and I'd be forced to delegate the only part of the job I enjoyed to the computer itself.

So Thomas, maybe your AI skeptic friends aren't nuts, they just have different priorities. I realize that my priorities are at odds for the companies I work for. I am just tightly gripping the last days that I can get by doing this job the way that I enjoy doing it.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#268
post #73

Soon all coding will look like L3 support - debugging something you've never seen before, and under pressure. AI is really taking away the fun parts from everything and leaving just the drudgery in place.

The key is to figure out how to move up the ladder of abstraction. You don't want to be a "coder" in a world where AI can code, but you do want to be a "person who makes software" in a world where making software just got easier.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#269
If they’re regurgitating what’s been learned, is there a risk of copyright/IP issues from whomever had the code used for training? Last time I checked, there’s a whole lotta lawyers in the us who’d like the business.

Re: My AI skeptic friends are all nuts

#270
> All this is to say: I write some Rust. I like it fine. If LLMs and Rust aren’t working for you, I feel you. But if that’s your whole thing, we’re not having the same argument.

Yes we are, because the kind of work you need to do in C++ or Rust is probably entirely different from the work this person manages to get the LLM to do in Go.

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